I am also a physician, and this absolutely does add up. Many hospitals, often in rural areas, go out of their way to ensure stable coverage for specific specialties. For example, loss of a neurosurgeon or a pulmonary/critical care physician can be devastating to them financially, as they can longer claim to offer those services. Therefore, they go out of their way to aggressively recruit and then attempt to tie down physicians for a long-term period.
Precious Roy wrote:
In the end, it will just be a matter of negotiations as litigation is expensive and time consuming. You will be in a substantially better position if you have well qualified legal counsel with specific expertise in medical employment.
Exactly! I would only add that, if possible, you want counsel with expertise in your specific situation, such as helping doctors renegotiate contracts with small town hospitals, or with the CIA.
hippisces wrote:
TLDR:
Got offered dream job, took it, have to quit current job (I gave them 1 month notice but the contract needed 3 months notice). I offer to work the last month for free just to get out of the contract and got denied.
This contract breach will cost me 1.5k .
Now what?
Please help me olmighty letsrun.
FIFY ya bee-esser.
hippisces wrote:
hippisces wrote:
It is a five years contract- and yes I understand I should have negotiated the clauses before I sign,
According to my employer, I have to serve them for the entire contract duration and then I can consider quitting given 3 months notice.
The answer is no, I have two years left. To the other readers that mentioned my dream job could wait another 3 months, that is not the case because they will have to wait for a couple of years before I can join them.
.
These are the relevant details you left out.
Depends on how strict the state employment laws are. Most companies make their own contracts more strict than state law and in most cases the state will rule that contract violates the law. I'd say speaking to a lawyer in your state is the best bet. Even if they charge you $20k-$30k you would be saving money.
Also, you should ask yourself if you think your employer will in fact take this to court. You know them better than me. They could just be threatening and intimidating you. But it does allow you to counter-sue if they sue you. I think it's an interesting case. At the end of the day, you offered to work one month free. And leave one month early. They declined that offer. Most courts will tell the business they should have accepted the good faith offer you made and you are free to go to the next job.
The only other consideration is if they paid you up front. It sounds like they did not since you said you'd be willing to work one month free. But if they did then they would in fact be entitled to that compensation back.
The last resort is just tell the new employer you are locked in for 3 months unless you pay the $150k fine. The new employer might just pay it for you and consider it a signing bonus.
atrackandfieldfan wrote:
I am also a physician, and this absolutely does add up. Many hospitals, often in rural areas, go out of their way to ensure stable coverage for specific specialties. For example, loss of a neurosurgeon or a pulmonary/critical care physician can be devastating to them financially, as they can longer claim to offer those services. Therefore, they go out of their way to aggressively recruit and then attempt to tie down physicians for a long-term period.
wait, what? Does this mean there is a shortage of doctors? How can that be? Health care is a fundamental right and cannot be denied to anyone. Surely there are an abundance of doctors out there who are ready, willing, and able to provide their health care services to anyone, at any time, and on a moment's notice and without any desire for compensation. It has to be so, because that's what Bernie & Karmello told me.
Dr. Lawyer esq wrote:
all the arm chair lawyers are kinda funny.
You have a contract...you are looking to breach that contract. Simple.
Now you may get a court or judge to find the penalty or the 3 month notice as excessive, but then again you have to go through the process of finding out. There is where a local employment law specialist is valuable. Especially, if he deals with physicians.
Or you could pay the termination.
I think the best bet is to try to negotiate a settlement that all parties can be happy with. (there may be an arbitration clause in your contract) You need to have an attorney do this with you. Employers invest a lot of $$ to hire and recruit people. It's not unreasonable for them to expect to recoup those costs.
There is no way "Dr. Lawyer esq"^^ is a lawyer, or a good one. It's impossible to give legal advice without knowing what state the new employer is in. For example, California is unlikely to enforce such a clause based on BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE - BPC 16600., which states: "Except as provided in this chapter, every contract by which anyone is restrained from engaging in a lawful profession, trade, or business of any kind is to that extent void." Many other states, like Texas, has similar laws.
As others have said, you need to contact a lawyer. Ask the lawyer what flat fee they would charge to (1) review your employment contract, and (2) write a letter to the new employer stating that the old employment contract is invalid. This should pacify the new employer, if they are hesitant to hire you due to the old employment contract, and pacify yourself that there is nothing illegal about ceasing work with the old employer.
My friend left his physician job for his dream job. A year later he was back with the original group as the dream job was not quite all he was led to believe.
Always leave on good terms. If you hate your current group, definitely see if they will let you forego salary in lieu of part of the penalty. But, unless you have a miracle lawyer who can get you out of it, you'll be paying that penalty in some way. You should really consider asking your dream job if they'll have an opening after your obligation is over.
You might be able to swing a longer exit notice ( 3 months of working for no pay for example) as that would decrease your out-of-pocket and give them a reasonable time to start recruiting. But considering the time it takes to find someone to replace you plus credentialling time, you will be burning a massive bridge if you go for the "dream job" as outlined.
As you already effed up the first time around on this job contract negotiation, please learn from your mistakes so as not to screw your whole career.
Attention!! Anyone in the medical field - always have an employment contract lawyer review your contract before you sign it, preferably one working in the medical field. They do exist and most medical schools have names to give you if needed.
Dogfish wrote:
Southern Charm wrote:
Are you in right to work state? You need to talk to an attorney.
What does this have to do with the topic being discussed? Do you even know what right to work state refers to?
It sure as heck doesn't apply to an idiot who signed a contract and then decided to break said contract and think they we would be no consequences.
Uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure that "right to work" applies to exactly this situation. The employee or employer can terminate the employment at any time without penalty.
Middle Ground wrote:
Uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure that "right to work" applies to exactly this situation. The employee or employer can terminate the employment at any time without penalty.
Um, no. "Right to work" laws cover employees who do no have an employment contract. The law you imagine would violate the contracts clause of the Constitution, which says, "No State shall...pass any...Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts."
Unfair contract terms wrote:
I understand that in the US, employees basically have no rights, but in the UK employment contract terms are usually deemed unfair if they are not bilateral. Penalty clauses would always fail.
UK?!? pfft....you must really hate FREEEDOMMM!!!!!!!!!
Middle Ground wrote:
Uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure that "right to work" applies to exactly this situation. The employee or employer can terminate the employment at any time without penalty.
"Right to work" means you can't be forced to join a union. It prohibits "closed" or "union" shops.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_lawErnest wrote:
Not every contract clause is enforceable, non-negotiable, or necessarily triggers litigation if breached.
Consult a lawyer specializing in Employment Law.
But if you want to risk your career and ~$150K by getting 50 different opinions from non-experts on the internet, seems your judgment isn't much better than when you signed.
anotherdocinthewall wrote:
My friend left his physician job for his dream job. A year later he was back with the original group as the dream job was not quite all he was led to believe.
Always leave on good terms. If you hate your current group, definitely see if they will let you forego salary in lieu of part of the penalty. But, unless you have a miracle lawyer who can get you out of it, you'll be paying that penalty in some way. You should really consider asking your dream job if they'll have an opening after your obligation is over.
You might be able to swing a longer exit notice ( 3 months of working for no pay for example) as that would decrease your out-of-pocket and give them a reasonable time to start recruiting. But considering the time it takes to find someone to replace you plus credentialling time, you will be burning a massive bridge if you go for the "dream job" as outlined.
As you already effed up the first time around on this job contract negotiation, please learn from your mistakes so as not to screw your whole career.
Attention!! Anyone in the medical field - always have an employment contract lawyer review your contract before you sign it, preferably one working in the medical field. They do exist and most medical schools have names to give you if needed.
800 dude wrote:
doesn't add up wrote:
Such a contract sounds like it will not be enforceable.
You need to lawyer up right now. It sucks, and it's expensive, but you have to do it. There are too many variables to get good advice on an internet forum. You need someone who can read your contract and who knows the law in your state.
Also, don't get too worked up about the threats that your employer is making. They're doing that because you don't have a lawyer. Businesses who have general counsels or lawyers on retainer make a habit of threatening unrepresented individuals with baseless litigation.
As a general matter of contract law, liquidated damages clauses are only enforceable if they are a reasonable approximation of actual damages. It seems VERY unlikely that losing a doctor 2 months early is going to cost your employer 150k. Moreover, in the employment context, there are a lot of "public policy" constraints on the kinds of contracts that courts will enforce. This varies a great deal from state to state.
Ernest wrote:
Not every contract clause is enforceable, non-negotiable, or necessarily triggers litigation if breached.
Consult a lawyer specializing in Employment Law.
But if you want to risk your career and ~$150K by getting 50 different opinions from non-experts on the internet, seems your judgment isn't much better than when you signed.
Thank you for the suggestions. I will talk to a lawyer next week to work things out. Hopefully the clauses are not enforceable.
Appreciate your comments as they distract me from worrying about it 24/7, though my employer could be planning to file a complaint against me already haha
I now think I might actually be able to walk out of this..
Crazy thinking but that's what stress and sleep deprivation do to your head
But then again, after getting threatened I am unable to think straight anymore.
sbeefyk2 wrote:
Depends on how strict the state employment laws are. Most companies make their own contracts more strict than state law and in most cases the state will rule that contract violates the law. I'd say speaking to a lawyer in your state is the best bet. Even if they charge you $20k-$30k you would be saving money.
Also, you should ask yourself if you think your employer will in fact take this to court. You know them better than me. They could just be threatening and intimidating you. But it does allow you to counter-sue if they sue you. I think it's an interesting case. At the end of the day, you offered to work one month free. And leave one month early. They declined that offer. Most courts will tell the business they should have accepted the good faith offer you made and you are free to go to the next job.
The only other consideration is if they paid you up front. It sounds like they did not since you said you'd be willing to work one month free. But if they did then they would in fact be entitled to that compensation back.
The last resort is just tell the new employer you are locked in for 3 months unless you pay the $150k fine. The new employer might just pay it for you and consider it a signing bonus.
I am pretty sure they will - well they convinced me that they are going to.
The last resort is actually my current strategy now- If they do want to hire me and willing to get me out of this chaotic mess I have created myself, that'd be great. But then again I am afraid of what my current employer would do. Too many things are at stake and I dont know how to get through this.
atrackandfieldfan wrote:
I am also a physician, and this absolutely does add up. Many hospitals, often in rural areas, go out of their way to ensure stable coverage for specific specialties. For example, loss of a neurosurgeon or a pulmonary/critical care physician can be devastating to them financially, as they can longer claim to offer those services. Therefore, they go out of their way to aggressively recruit and then attempt to tie down physicians for a long-term period.
Would have been nice if I had had someone professional to assess my employment contract beforehand. Things happen, you may get burnout / family issues/ have to relocate etc, 5 years of the work commitment is just too hectic. Hope you are doing well doctor, take care of yourself!
Its unlikely they will actually legally sue you.
800 Dude is correct in law.
Clause is unenforceable because its a penalty, not a genuine pre-estimate of damages.
Would only be enforceable if the plaintiffs has evidence to show that their losses under the breach of contract would amount to $150,000 (or more).
Sounds like a presumed damages clause ie liquidated