Lance Armstrong deserves a break

theRanMan wrote:

Devil Dog wrote:

People here tend to lose their shitt if you mention the fact that El G, Komen, Ngeny, Lagat, Bekele, etc were all on the exact same drugs at the exact same time.

lost my shite, Bekele was never on drugs

If Lance Armstrong had succeeded as a marathon runner, he would be treated like a God here, even if everyone knew he was doped to the gills.

Scratch that - if Lance Armstrong was African and had succeeded as a marathon runner, he would be treated like a God here, even if everyone knew he was doped to the gills.

theRanMan wrote:

Devil Dog wrote:

People here tend to lose their shitt if you mention the fact that El G, Komen, Ngeny, Lagat, Bekele, etc were all on the exact same drugs at the exact same time.

lost my shite, Bekele was never on drugs

He’s still on drugs.

You people are so naive.

when and where to cycle wrote:

theRanMan wrote:

lost my shite, Bekele was never on drugs

If Lance Armstrong had succeeded as a marathon runner, he would be treated like a God here, even if everyone knew he was doped to the gills.

Scratch that - if Lance Armstrong was African and had succeeded as a marathon runner, he would be treated like a God here, even if everyone knew he was doped to the gills.

This is exactly right.

Why do white Americans self loathe so much?

IDK why the moran sector of this board HAS to have this same discussion every damn summer, it's like straight out of Groundhog Day. Like the argument on either side has improved since the first time? Buncha wankers.

Donedoerofdeed wrote:

He was still doing a "hit and run" around Aspen and lying about it as recently as 2014:

https://www.aspendailynews.com/armstrong-given-two-tickets-after-car-crash/article_490e99d4-0f74-5efa-9e76-51eee2d5ce3d.html

Still thinks he is above the law. People do prison time on far less.

Wasn't this around the time he did that candid interview, and the interviewer came to Lance's house to see his artwork and wine collection, and to see lance drink countless drinks?

I wonder if Lance was drunk when he did this. It would explain the driving away part.

Blazing Slow Poke wrote:

...and overall the most talented cyclist ever.

You've read too many Outside magazine fluff pieces. Incredibly talented... yes. Most talented cyclist ever. NO.

Ferrari's drug regimen for Lance was not the same one his own teammates were on. If you think otherwise, you're mistaken. Although drug use is rampant in cycling, many are trying to do it on their own and do not have Ferrari's (or any other doctor's) sophisticated drug program. Remember, prior to cancer and ramping up his drugs under Ferrari, Lance was not a very good grand tour rider. His specialty was one day races.

And despite the prevalence of drug use, even Hamilton apologized to all of the clean riders.

Drugs or not, what Lance did was very impressive. But it doesn't make him the most talented cyclist ever or even the most talented cyclist of his time. He should have been popped for a positive test during his first post-cancer tour. It would have ended the charade immediately.

Who cares about "most talented"? Seriously. That's totally irrelevant and meaningless.....and undefinable for that matter.

It's about winning.

He won 7 straight years by huge margins each year, except for 2003. He was drugged up just like the rest. All this talk of "super responder" is pure fantasy. Now supposedly he was the only one of Ferrari's super special program? Come on, you can't just invent stuff that you wish were so.

He may not be a nice person, but one of history's greatest cyclist, absolutely. People's disproportionate dislike for the man, can't change the evidence.

Im likely a dirtbag but I admire his ability to lie and also perform. I can think of a few athletes like Jordan, Kobe, Tiger with such a passion for working hard and winning. Lance also only trained for the tour from what I understand. Someone like Sagan is doing races all over the world, charity rides etc. Lance went to Europe before the tour and knew every inch of the race and watching old videos of him is inspiring, drugs or no drugs.

We all knew Bonds was dirty but we watched the tv waiting for the next homerun, same with Mcguire/Sosa, Hicham in the olympics etc. Who gives a f*ck about drugs. He was the best....best cyclist, best doper and best liar.....good for him. One of my favorite pictures ever is the one he posted after they stripped him of his titles, laying in his den with the 7 yellow jerseys....thats the best F.U. ever.

His ability to lie and perform is why he is a role model.

Testifying under oath is useless. seriously! whether is be the bible, another holy book, or whatever other things are used for oaths, people can and will lie to benefit themselves.

I do agree though that Lance was an a**hole to many people around him and he deserves punishment for cheating, but people need to realize he wasn't the only cheat! In a race of over 2000km, climbing over several huge mountains, there is no way any other "clean" athlete could be within 10 minutes of him - let alone even an hour! They were all dirty!

Jefrey with one F wrote:

He may not be a nice person, but one of history's greatest cyclist, absolutely.

He was above average before PEDs. Nothing special.

Jefrey with one F wrote:

He won 7 straight years by huge margins each year, except for 2003. He was drugged up just like the rest. All this talk of "super responder" is pure fantasy. Now supposedly he was the only one of Ferrari's super special program? Come on, you can't just invent stuff that you wish were so.

He paid Dr. Dope over million smackers to put him on the best "program" known to mankind at that time. Dr. Dope transformed LA from a non-GC contender to 7 consecutive crushing Tour wins. Except for one year none were even close. Dr. Dope turned a donkey into a prime time racehorse. That usually happens when you have the dough the pay the best in the business to individualize a high-quality program for you.

The Armstrong paid trolls are coming out in full force to de-emphasize his transformation from Dr. Dope's program in an effort to make it look like dope had little to do with his unbelievable success. And it's amazing how people are falling this. Lol.

Needles McDoperface wrote:

Jefrey with one F wrote:

He may not be a nice person, but one of history's greatest cyclist, absolutely.

He was above average before PEDs. Nothing special.

He was a total chump before PEDs:

I bet you also take as gospel the CIRC-report (very biased on many occasions IMO) which states that PEDs were at the center of the "experimental" Ferrari-program:

[quote]With the reintroduction of blood transfusion into the peloton, “doping doctors” cemented their key position in the teams’ doping programme during the 2001—2008 era.

One rider told the Commission he had spent more than EUR 30,000 in two years with Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, to plan and administer his PED programme... George Hincapie from USPS indicated to USADA that he agreed to hire Dr Michele Ferrari to assist him with his blood doping programme...

Dr Eufemiano Fuentes was reported to be conservative in terms of how he recommended and administered doping programmes. In comparison, a number of riders characterised Dr Michele Ferrari as the “go-to” doctor if you wanted to try new, sometimes “experimental”, ideas in doping.

With the reintroduction of blood transfusion into the peloton, “doping doctors” cemented their key position in the teams’ doping programme during the 2001—2008 era.

One rider told the Commission he had spent more than EUR 30,000 in two years with Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, to plan and administer his PED programme... George Hincapie from USPS indicated to USADA that he agreed to hire Dr Michele Ferrari to assist him with his blood doping programme...

Dr Eufemiano Fuentes was reported to be conservative in terms of how he recommended and administered doping programmes. In comparison, a number of riders characterised Dr Michele Ferrari as the “go-to” doctor if you wanted to try new, sometimes “experimental”, ideas in doping.

So what was this super special dope that Ferrari exclusively provided to LA? Surely 12 years later we'd know about it. And supposing that these never-specified experimental doping methods/products existed, is it really an advantage to be a guinea pig for doping chemicals? Ferrari had a lot of clients, why did only one win the TdF 7 years straight by massive margins? Hate him all you want, but the evidence is that he was a once in a generation talent.

Jefrey with one F wrote:

So what was this super special dope that Ferrari exclusively provided to LA? Surely 12 years later we'd know about it. And supposing that these never-specified experimental doping methods/products existed, is it really an advantage to be a guinea pig for doping chemicals? Ferrari had a lot of clients, why did only one win the TdF 7 years straight by massive margins? Hate him all you want, but the evidence is that he was a once in a generation talent.

No...he was a once in a generation super-responder to certain pharmaceuticals. My guess is he probably has the genetic (inherited) makeup that allowed for a very high response to the pharmaceuticals in use back in that era. But it was quite a cocktail nonetheless; EPO (and later blood transfusions), HGH, T, corticosteroids, etc. Combining the HGH, T & corticosteroids alone is nasty stuff; his recovery from brutal workouts must have been off the charts. Factor in the high-octane doping and he's flying come competition time.

Ferrari administered the drugs & dosages, monitored his blood & T values, structured the program to coincide with the build-up period to the Tour and restructured his training, which would have allow for much harder training because of better recovery from the drugs.

All you have to do is go watch some of his crushing Tour stage victories over other known dopers. He's just not squeaking out victories over these other dopers but crushing them; stage after stage, year after year, etc.

When one doper dominates other dopers at that high level of pro sports for several years it is a very high response to the synergistic effects of pharmaceuticals:

LA = High Response To Pharmaceuticals wrote:

My guess is he probably has the genetic (inherited) makeup that allowed for a very high response to the pharmaceuticals in use back in that era... Ferrari administered the drugs & dosages, monitored his blood & T values, structured the program to coincide with the build-up period to the Tour and restructured his training...

To summarise: he used the same products as everyone else had access to and his coach/doctor made a sophisticated training program for him (as some other coach MDs did for their clients) of which the doping component might've been more sophisticated (unproven).

He had no control about the (presumably less sound) programs of his competitors nor about his own genes, so there is no unfair advantage he could do anything about.

People forget that Lance stayed with pro triathletes at 15. His mom had to drive him to that race. The national TriFed newsletter wondered what he’d do when he had a drivers license. They didn’t have any money & he only became a cyclist because he could turn pro quicker.