Marathon training, how many days of faster work?

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman recommends 2 big workouts for marathons (very long sessions, at least 90 min, up to 150 min) per week. And rest very easy, short 5-6 mile runs.

One could be a CV workout, like 6x1k with very long warm-up and CD and one could be a long run with 3x5k at MP, or a progressive long run, etc. Just make sure that 2 days are super hard/long, and use the rest to recover for these sessions. It's very specific to the marathon and avoids over-training by doing 2 hard sessions AND a long run on top of it.

Tinman is not a good reference when it comes to the marathon. And I just reminds you that the best marathoner in history usually do 2 interval workouts and one specific long run in the week.

Jejsjsjsj wrote:

Sasha Pachev wrote:

Marathon performance consists of two basic components - having adequate speed and being able to sustain it over the distance.

For what race distance is that not true?

+ 1 !

I'll bite.

I have found that for me, the trick with the marathon is getting used to running hard on tired legs. I don't worry too much about hitting "marathon pace," although I'm aware of what my goal is and I definitely try to run MP or faster as much as possible. Here's a normal week for me during a heavy training cycle.

M: 10 easy

Tu AM: 10 easy

Tu PM: 10-15 with 6-8 miles around MP.

W: 14-17 mi MLR. Easy for the first 8-10 miles, then pick it up for a few miles "hard." Due to residual fatigue from Tuesday this usually is slower than MP.

Th: 10 super easy

F AM: 10 easy

F PM: 10-15 with a workout faster than MP (3x3 mi, 2x5 mi, 10x1 mi)

Sa: 10 easy

Su: 18-25 mi LR, usually a progression to get close to MP by the end.

This seems to be a lot more fast running than most plans but I've found that most marathoners are too focused on crushing those 2 workouts per week instead of just running hard often. Yes I could run my 3x3 mi workout faster if it was my only workout of the week, but I think it's more important to get used to running hard when you're tired and not worry about killing each workout.

It took me a few years to build up to this plan so I don't suggest jumping right into it. But it got me to 2:19 as "just" a 14:55 5K guy.

This is a good solid plan, but it would destroy me. Particularly at my age, running hard that frequently would be incredibly hard, even if “hard” is only around marathon pace.

I think you have an atypical gift as a runner. Some guys have a naturally big vo2max or great natural speed or a great lactic threshold. You have outlier durability (or are just young and lucky). Just as important a physical trait as those other attributes, although often overlooked.

Smoove wrote:

This is a good solid plan, but it would destroy me.

Same here. Last marathon training cycle I did an 18-week buildup with 3 workouts per week:

Workout 1: CV (6-7x1k @ 10k pace, 6-7x200 @ mile pace)

Workout 2: Marathon pace tempo (6 miles @ MP building to 10 miles @ MP by the end of training cycle, some threshold miles every other week, 6x20-30sec hills every week).

Workout 3: Long run (16-22 miles with lots of MP worked in)

This plan crushed me and I peaked 5 weeks before race day. By the time the race came I was lethargic and it took me months to feel good again. I think it was a mix of going too hard and my body reaching a tipping point where recovery became more difficult (age 38).

I'm going for a fall marathon this year but this time it'll just be a 12-week block with 2 workouts per week (MP tempos will be worked into the long run). Lots more easy running and recovery. Hopefully this will translate to a better performance on race day.

I'd wager that you will race much better than you did last time out. Like you and Smoove, I just can't handle 3 days of hard running per 7 and life makes it too difficult to switch to a 9+ day cycle. I've continuously improved since switching to a hard day during the week and hard stuff within the long run. Other days are 10-12 milers done super easy. I am still of the mindset that one should increase their overall mileage and find their sweet spot there before trying to pile on more and more quality work.

Since graduating college I found a 2Q system works best with my schedule. I tried doing 3Q a week but I was always tired and usually my second quality workout of the week ended up being very slow or I felt wrecked. One long run and one tempo/interval session seems to be enough right now. I think NAZ Elite has some weeks in their plans where 2Q workouts a week are done instead of 3Q. Although, for them, they usually have absolutely monster sessions like 15 mile steady state tempos and 12x1 mile sometimes.

Some brilliant insight here guys, thank you. Its interesting to see how different approaches work for different people.

Im pretty sold on a 2Q approach - my gut feeling is that a 9 day 3 workout schedule might be optimal, but as one poster above said, its very difficult to reconcile that with a regular life/job. Just cant fit in a 20 miler on a weeknight, even 1:30 is pushing it.

How do people view marathon pace as being a necessary element of marathon training? That might sound like a dumb question; but Daniels Plan A incorporates very little of it for example. Is it vital to rehearse that pace regularly, or better left to a few major 'test' efforts?

I find I need the structure of a 'canned' plan as a starting point, but will look to adapt any plan as needed:

Daniels Plan A looks a good option as Smoove says, but it lacks much marathon pace work. I also wonder if 8 miles of 'T' is a little too much for me (never gone beyond 6 in a session).

On the other hand, the 3rd edition 2Q plans bring in more M running, but for the 56-70 plan, the long runs are a little short. This approach also spreads the interval work throughout the plan.

My temptation is to take one of the 2Q plans, lengthen the weekend workout to 18-20 most weeks, with some up to 22, and shorten the midweek work to circa 12 miles. Those mid week 15/16/17 milers in the 56-70 plan are just not compatible with my life.

Bit of a random brain dump of thoughts tbh; but really good to hear peoples views on marathon training as a whole

Donald Stott wrote:

My temptation is to take one of the 2Q plans, lengthen the weekend workout to 18-20 most weeks, with some up to 22, and shorten the midweek work to circa 12 miles. Those mid week 15/16/17 milers in the 56-70 plan are just not compatible with my life.

This is basically what I did in my lead up to Grandma's--lengthened the 2Q weekend long run by adding extra easy miles and cut down the first workout of the week (which I always did on Weds. after the kids were in bed--those were the hardest days because I was already tired and hungry, and they featured the most T. Looking back though, I think they were the most vital to training). I had planned to get up to 60+ but got hit with tendonitis so ended up averaging 50 MPW when all was said and done, and I stuck with the 41-55MPW plan. Wednesdays were usually 10-12 miles, half or a bit under half of T. Saturdays were long runs with lots of MP and some T if Jack called for it. Saturday long runs were four 17 milers, one 18 miler, two 20 milers (and a bunch of 14-16 milers in the early build up). Like you, I was worried about how "short" the Daniels' weekend long runs were and so I increased them. Didn't get to do much interval work due to tendonitis.

For what it's worth, I had a big improvement off this plan and ended up improving from a 3:34 (last year) to a 3:08:XX. (Note, however, my training for that 3:34 was pretty abysmal. Got in the long runs but did NO speed work and averaged 30 MPW.)

I'll never do 2 workouts plus a hard long run. (2:30ish guy here, from a 3:10 debut)

1 midweek workout and 1 hard long run will do the trick. 2 moderate workouts and a moderate long run would be okay but I think you're better off with the first option

reed wrote:

I'll never do 2 workouts plus a hard long run. (2:30ish guy here, from a 3:10 debut)

1 midweek workout and 1 hard long run will do the trick. 2 moderate workouts and a moderate long run would be okay but I think you're better off with the first option

I do something like a 2Q+ plan. A Tuesday workout. Then a moderate 10-12 miler on Thursday, slower than marathon pace. Then a steady long run (not easy) with fast finish on the weekend. I count the long run as one of the workouts.

Keep it choge! wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman recommends 2 big workouts for marathons (very long sessions, at least 90 min, up to 150 min) per week. And rest very easy, short 5-6 mile runs.

One could be a CV workout, like 6x1k with very long warm-up and CD and one could be a long run with 3x5k at MP, or a progressive long run, etc. Just make sure that 2 days are super hard/long, and use the rest to recover for these sessions. It's very specific to the marathon and avoids over-training by doing 2 hard sessions AND a long run on top of it.

Tinman is not a good reference when it comes to the marathon. And I just reminds you that the best marathoner in history usually do 2 interval workouts and one specific long run in the week.

Ever heard of Brogan Austin? Guy went from being virtually nobody to the US national marathon champion with Tinman training.

Yes, the best marathoners train like you said but the average LR user is a 2:20-2:50 marathoner, and for them Tinman's 2Q approach with both being labeled as "BIG workouts" would work great. Better 2 really hard runs, than 2 medium ones and a medium hard long run.

I love this post thank you!

I am training for my first 'thon. Never did one before but was a 1:39 half guy and did a few in that range.

I was only doing 25-30 mpw for the half; I'm at 42 for the full and shooting for 3:30 for the first one. In my dreams I'd love to get fast enough to BQ on the first attempt but realistically that may be 2-4 marathons down the road. Shooting for a hobbyjogging 8 flat pace just as a baseline and it's easy to keep track of. The real work begins for Marathons 2-4.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Keep it choge! wrote:

Tinman is not a good reference when it comes to the marathon. And I just reminds you that the best marathoner in history usually do 2 interval workouts and one specific long run in the week.

Ever heard of Brogan Austin? Guy went from being virtually nobody to the US national marathon champion with Tinman training.

Yes, the best marathoners train like you said but the average LR user is a 2:20-2:50 marathoner, and for them Tinman's 2Q approach with both being labeled as "BIG workouts" would work great. Better 2 really hard runs, than 2 medium ones and a medium hard long run.

To be a US national champion in the marathon today says nothing in the big world of running.Just reminds you.

When I sometimes see you commenting here beats me the thought; Could this be Tinman self advertising?

How do you know that Tinman's approach work better for the majority of 2:20-2:50 marathoners???

They are people,runners,with basically the same biological conditions and react in the same way to training stimulus as elite runners!

Keep it choge! wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Ever heard of Brogan Austin? Guy went from being virtually nobody to the US national marathon champion with Tinman training.

Yes, the best marathoners train like you said but the average LR user is a 2:20-2:50 marathoner, and for them Tinman's 2Q approach with both being labeled as "BIG workouts" would work great. Better 2 really hard runs, than 2 medium ones and a medium hard long run.

To be a US national champion in the marathon today says nothing in the big world of running.Just reminds you.

When I sometimes see you commenting here beats me the thought; Could this be Tinman self advertising?

How do you know that Tinman's approach work better for the majority of 2:20-2:50 marathoners???

They are people,runners,with basically the same biological conditions and react in the same way to training stimulus as elite runners!

Considering he's posted his own Strava, you'd be pretty silly to think this.

Also, what "biological conditions" do we share with elites? VO2max?

sub_3_is_the_goal wrote:

I have settled on 2 workouts a week (including long run, which usually has at least a couple of miles at goal pace). I get the most bang for my buck out of long tempo stuff (2 or 3x5k @ faster than goal pace).

Makes sense

browski wrote:

[quote]Keep it choge! wrote:

Also, what "biological conditions" do we share with elites? VO2max?

Do you understand that all runners without exception have eg a VO2max?

Keep it choge! wrote:

They are people,runners,with basically the same biological conditions and react in the same way to training stimulus as elite runners!

And that's the issue. Tinman said time and time again that this is NOT true.

In his tables, he recommends stuff like the following:

20 min 5k guy: 4x1k @CV

18 min 5k guy: 5x1k @CV

17 min 5k guy: 6x1k @CV

14 min 5k guy: 8x1k @CV

CV is the same effort for each of these runners - a pace they can hold for roughly 30-35 minutes, producing a lactate level of around 5.5mmol.

He also says that a workout like 5x1k @3k pace (VO2MAX) might work for an elite in competition phase without racing too often, but would completely destroy a recreational runner, even if the pace gets adjusted to his level.

What's his reasoning? VO2MAX/aerobic capacity. He says that elites have a much higher aerobic capacity, allowing them to absorb the trainings better, recover faster during the repeats and in the recovery that's needed after the workout. In physiological terms, he says that the elites take in much more oxygen every minute than a recreational runner could ever dream of. Makes sense?

Copying the training of elites without being one / having the VO2MAX to be one is an easy way to overtraining, injuries and burn-out. EVEN if the paces are adjusted!

Two hard workouts a week is optimal for most people. People here are arguing again Tinman versus Daniels 2Q. They are the same thing! Different workouts, but same general approaches.

I created a matrix: Tinman, 2Q, 4W, Daniels HM and Smooves Chicago Plan. I then color coded by workout type and the plans are all very similar!

All of the plans have 200’s and 400’s, tempos and hard long runs. The Tinman plan doesn’t have easy long runs. Even Daniels HM plan has heaps of M paced stuff and Tempo running.

People just need to understand training load and specificity.