TheOscarforbestactressgoesto... wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
What I like about Muir, apart from her gutsy running, is that she nearly dies after the race and is often flat out on the deck after her wins. That doesn't smack of an EPO runner to me, unlike those who show absolutely no signs of fatigue at the end of a race.
It's called acting
Bollocks.
What's possibly quite true is that if an athlete is pushed to their limits they will appear to strain - even 'drown' out there - and that is so even if they are on EPO's. But with drugs their limits are now further out, and if they perform just within their maximum they will typically show no signs of strain or fatigue. You can see that in a lot of sports now. And recovery will be way faster than with a clean runner pushed to their limits.
Back to Muir, I have seen her giving it everything at the end of a race and she seems to take a while to recover. At a much lower level, I remember what that pain felt like.
Armstronglivs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
It's aways been the case that some runners look like they are suffering more than others. Zatopek and Kawauchi I've mentioned. Other great runners look great - Billy Mills, Jim Ryun, Wottle.
Jim didn't look so good at Mexico City. He thought he was going to die out there. Unlike Keino ...
Thinking about it, Ryun was not a great example, he does swing his head side to side a lot. Plus he wasn't winning that race, and my point remains that often the winners the fitter athletes look fresher than those trying to keep up, dopers or not.
I'm sure you can think of lots of great performances by people who looked great that you presume to be clean. Look at German Fernandez in high school or first year in college.
Look how fresh this woman looks at the finish:
zzzz wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Jim didn't look so good at Mexico City. He thought he was going to die out there. Unlike Keino ...
Thinking about it, Ryun was not a great example, he does swing his head side to side a lot. Plus he wasn't winning that race, and my point remains that often the winners the fitter athletes look fresher than those trying to keep up, dopers or not.
I'm sure you can think of lots of great performances by people who looked great that you presume to be clean. Look at German Fernandez in high school or first year in college.
I wouldn't make a hard and fast rule about it. Fatigue and recovery are only one part of the picture.
It's interesting, though, that at a local track meet a few years ago I overheard two coaches discussing a particular athlete on the track and whether that athlete was "juicing". One said to the other, "have you seen how fast he recovers?" That's an interesting question, if the athlete recovers much faster than everyone else - and much faster than the athlete themselves used to. Not necessarily proof - that's always difficult - but still a flag.
Armstronglivs wrote:
What I like about Muir, apart from her gutsy running, is that she nearly dies after the race and is often flat out on the deck after her wins. That doesn't smack of an EPO runner to me, unlike those who show absolutely no signs of fatigue at the end of a race.
Are we talking this again:-
https://youtu.be/kr-ACku1b9g?t=01m12sArmstronglivs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Thinking about it, Ryun was not a great example, he does swing his head side to side a lot. Plus he wasn't winning that race, and my point remains that often the winners the fitter athletes look fresher than those trying to keep up, dopers or not.
I'm sure you can think of lots of great performances by people who looked great that you presume to be clean. Look at German Fernandez in high school or first year in college.
I wouldn't make a hard and fast rule about it. Fatigue and recovery are only one part of the picture.
It's interesting, though, that at a local track meet a few years ago I overheard two coaches discussing a particular athlete on the track and whether that athlete was "juicing". One said to the other, "have you seen how fast he recovers?" That's an interesting question, if the athlete recovers much faster than everyone else - and much faster than the athlete themselves used to. Not necessarily proof - that's always difficult - but still a flag.
That's another great point. And good coaches would know what athletes are doping or not based things like unusal recovery, rapid improvement, having a great endurance base with lower mileage, etc. But most of the time coaches will keep their opinions to themselves and not want to say anything in public that might come back to bite them...no surprises there.
- Was wearing peg turbos cause she wanted to protect her body ahead of Stockholm.
- full workouts that week without schedule being adjusted for that race.
- let's see how Stockholm goes before we worry about her losing a road mile not even wearing flats lol.
"She's acting when she's all tired over the line" - if you'd seen her at training you'd realize how stupid that sentence is. Either that or she should be making more money in Hollywood and not the track.
Super Fly Guy wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
What I like about Muir, apart from her gutsy running, is that she nearly dies after the race and is often flat out on the deck after her wins. That doesn't smack of an EPO runner to me, unlike those who show absolutely no signs of fatigue at the end of a race.
Are we talking this again:-
https://youtu.be/kr-ACku1b9g?t=01m12s
I've seen sprinters more gassed than that. No, I don't believe any of it.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Super Fly Guy wrote:
Are we talking this again:-
https://youtu.be/kr-ACku1b9g?t=01m12sI've seen sprinters more gassed than that. No, I don't believe any of it.
Have you ever won a race?
I have won a few. Twice (once 5 mi road race, the other 1500 m on the track) I crossed the line and collapsed. A few more times the adrenaline or whatever it was kicked in and I felt no pain, no fatigue.
It is possible to finish a race in which you gave it your all without looking like Laura Muir does at the end - and not doping.
54ty54 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I've seen sprinters more gassed than that. No, I don't believe any of it.
Have you ever won a race?
I have won a few. Twice (once 5 mi road race, the other 1500 m on the track) I crossed the line and collapsed. A few more times the adrenaline or whatever it was kicked in and I felt no pain, no fatigue.
It is possible to finish a race in which you gave it your all without looking like Laura Muir does at the end - and not doping.
Yes, I've won races. And nearly puked afterwards. If I ran to my limit, it was always hard to recover; less than my limit, then of course it was easier.
But when I see someone smash a world record for an event as testing as the marathon and look like they've just jogged a few hundred metres then I think I'm seeing the same old same old.
Armstronglivs, you don't know anything about oxygen delivery. It's you who is spouting bollocks.
the pseudoscience pointer outer wrote:
Armstronglivs, you don't know anything about oxygen delivery. It's you who is spouting bollocks.
No, I don't hide behind jargon or textbooks but I do know something about sports performance, having watched top-level sportsmen for over half a century - as well as having met a few champions - and participated in sports for just as long. I've also got to know some people whose job was anti-doping. Sometimes, experience beats theory.
I have lots of experience too. I know that this whole thing about higher than normal oxygen delivery is a myth. And believing it is very naive.
Laura Muir had just returned form altitude. She would have found it very hard to actually race with the higher atmospheric oxygen content at sea level. Give it a few days for her biochemistry to re adjust she will be ready to really race.
54ty54 wrote:
Have you ever won a race?
I have won a few. Twice (once 5 mi road race, the other 1500 m on the track) I crossed the line and collapsed. A few more times the adrenaline or whatever it was kicked in and I felt no pain, no fatigue.
It is possible to finish a race in which you gave it your all without looking like Laura Muir does at the end - and not doping.
C'mon man...did you see women's 1500 at London? The two Turkey dopers (Cakir Alptekin/gold & Bulut/silver) smoked the field and showed absolutely no signs of fatigue after the finish! All the girls were going full-gas on the last lap and Bulut, who is pulling hard temp for her teammate, recovers enough to get second! Both girls were fresh as a daisy! Btw, both were banned and lost their medals due to ABP violations for hematological anomalies. This is the power doping can have with high-responders...thank goodness for the ABP!
https://youtu.be/lWzqfiWRE9Qthe pseudoscience pointer outer wrote:
I have lots of experience too. I know that this whole thing about higher than normal oxygen delivery is a myth. And believing it is very naive.
Laura Muir had just returned form altitude. She would have found it very hard to actually race with the higher atmospheric oxygen content at sea level. Give it a few days for her biochemistry to re adjust she will be ready to really race.
I don't buy that. She would have found it hard to race at altitude after training at sea-level - as many athletes experienced at the Mexico City Olympics. But I've never seen that anyone has struggled coming from altitude to sea-level. In fact, the benefits of altitude training are said to be short-lived, so the sooner you race after returning to sea-level the better.
No, the blood chemistry has to re adjust after altitude training.
And if it's her first race for a while.... etcetera
Your explanations are just made up stuff that people say with no real understanding of oxygen delivery.
pseudoscience pointer outer wrote:
No, the blood chemistry has to re adjust after altitude training.
And if it's her first race for a while.... etcetera
Your explanations are just made up stuff that people say with no real understanding of oxygen delivery.
You're right to call yourself pseudoscience.