why is this Timnan famous?
why is this Timnan famous?
3xNationalAppearance wrote:
Coach C wrote:
This is exact issue with high school I have. Too much racing so even if you build a big base during the summer you lose it by November because you’ve been racing twice a week since late August. I consider hard intervals to be equivalent to a race. That’s why it’s better to do one race/VO2 session and one tempo session a week. That way you can still increase the mileage from a solid 40-60 to 60-80 throughout the fall. I believe the programs that are doing well at nationals in December are doing this.
My team has been to nationals three times.
One of our stable workouts is 10-12x600 Where we run the first few at 5k pace, next few at 2 mile, then mile pace and faster. On weeks where we have two meets we will usually do 10-12x400.
At the start of the season we do a steady uphill 4 mile moderate run, and run pretty fast on the way back down. (Anywhere from 1:00-2:00 off 5k time)
So, if you're kids are racing twice a week, along with this workout, I guess you're a proponent for a good amount of intensity? Obviously, you're doing something very right if you have been to nationals three times. 3 v02 max type workouts seems a lot in one week. It's just confusing, trying to figure out what the best amount of intensity is, so that the athletes improve, but don't break down. I've got a couple of my best runners who start to break down halfway through the season, once the races start, and I'm trying to figure out what I need to change in the plan, so that they can stay strong throughout the season.
Non-trollish answer wrote:
An average week of close to 60 miles would look something like this:
Monday: 50 minutes easy with strides (maybe 6-8x20 seconds @3200ish pace, 20 seconds easy)
Tuesday: 30 minute Tinman Tempo, with 3-4 hill strides of about 30 seconds @mileish and 3-4 flat strides of about 15 seconds a little faster afterward. Say 60 minutes on the day
Wednesday: 50 minutes easy
Thursday: 50 minutes easy with strides (same as Monday)
Friday: Either CV fartlek or threshold fartlek (so, for you, 5-6x3 minutes at CV with 1 minute recovery; or 4-5x5 minutes @threshold with 90 second recovery). Same deal as Tuesday with some hills and strides after. Say 60 minutes on the day
Saturday: 50 minutes easy (same as Wednesday)
Sunday: Long run of about 80-90 minutes
The idea is to keep things relaxed, smooth, relatively easy. The hills and strides shouldn't feel too taxing; Tinman Tempo shouldn't feel like a particularly difficult pace; CV is just past threshold but not that hard; threshold intervals are easier than a continuous threshold run.
This training is solid, but if you were to just run easy mileage and do a tinman tempo or similar-type workout once a week with some strides on the other days, you'd be just fine as well.
What is Tinman Tempo?
The fastest pace in Tinman Tempo range is Marathon Pace and then it ranges about 10 seconds per mile slower than that (smaller range for faster runners). So it's significantly slower than threshold. There's also easy tempo, which I think would be acceptable for summer training runs, which is about 20 seconds per mile slower than tempo.
Non-trollish answer wrote:
An average week of close to 60 miles would look something like this:
Monday: 50 minutes easy with strides (maybe 6-8x20 seconds @3200ish pace, 20 seconds easy)
Tuesday: 30 minute Tinman Tempo, with 3-4 hill strides of about 30 seconds @mileish and 3-4 flat strides of about 15 seconds a little faster afterward. Say 60 minutes on the day
Wednesday: 50 minutes easy
Thursday: 50 minutes easy with strides (same as Monday)
Friday: Either CV fartlek or threshold fartlek (so, for you, 5-6x3 minutes at CV with 1 minute recovery; or 4-5x5 minutes @threshold with 90 second recovery). Same deal as Tuesday with some hills and strides after. Say 60 minutes on the day
Saturday: 50 minutes easy (same as Wednesday)
Sunday: Long run of about 80-90 minutes
The idea is to keep things relaxed, smooth, relatively easy. The hills and strides shouldn't feel too taxing; Tinman Tempo shouldn't feel like a particularly difficult pace; CV is just past threshold but not that hard; threshold intervals are easier than a continuous threshold run.
This training is solid, but if you were to just run easy mileage and do a tinman tempo or similar-type workout once a week with some strides on the other days, you'd be just fine as well.
I would just like to say that this training looks fun to do for summer training. And then when XC season starts I think it'd be nice to continue to do it and use races as hard workouts. The only thing I'd add is doing the long run on hilly terrain (but not letting it turn in to a hard effort).
fdbrrtgref wrote:
YungRunna wrote:
I am currently a sophomore in high school and have have ran a 4:16 mile this current track season so far. I was wondering what are some main aspects of the Tinman approach during the base phase going into this cross country season. I want to try to be running under 15 minutes for 5k throughout the season. I am doing 50-60 miles this summer as well (currently doing 40s).
What general runs would the average week hold based on the tinman approach? I was thinking about doing tinman tempo type of run on a hilly course frequently ( not more than once a week) then a long run each week. What other things should I incorporate into my training during my base phase?
Should I do runs with pick-ups during them (fartlek type runs) or hill workouts as well over the summer?
If these numbers are true you are super talented. You should send Tom an email and inquire about personal coaching. I was an average talent and my parents paid him to coach me in high school. This was years ago, and it was money well spent. You only have this opportunity in front of you once.
No,no! Dont advice him to use a hyped and expensive coach. Coach JS is a much better choice and a coach that never fails and gives you most for your bucks.
I was always burn out similarly towards the post season racing as well, and I don't really start putting in full race efforts until the last 1/3 of the year. After state, I am usually feeling mentally burned out. I keep my mileage consistent the whole training cycle during the regular season, and I don't know what causes it because I haven't done many all-out races.
I just wrapped up this track season. I got third at the GA Meet of Champs 3200m and ran 9:11. Then I ran 4:16 full mile at Wingfoot Mile. I wasn't mentally ready at all for the mile, and I was ready to just call. I was planning on Music City this Saturday, but I decided to go ahead and take my break because I am so mentally burned out. I still feel like I have a lot more to give pr wise which is getting me.
YungRunna wrote:
I am currently a sophomore in high school and have have ran a 4:16 mile this current track season so far. I was wondering what are some main aspects of the Tinman approach during the base phase going into this cross country season. I want to try to be running under 15 minutes for 5k throughout the season. I am doing 50-60 miles this summer as well (currently doing 40s).
What general runs would the average week hold based on the tinman approach? I was thinking about doing tinman tempo type of run on a hilly course frequently ( not more than once a week) then a long run each week. What other things should I incorporate into my training during my base phase?
Should I do runs with pick-ups during them (fartlek type runs) or hill workouts as well over the summer?
If you ran 4:16 as a sophomore I would listen to your coach.
Yup, yup wrote:
Coach C wrote:
This is exact issue with high school I have. Too much racing so even if you build a big base during the summer you lose it by November because you’ve been racing twice a week since late August. I consider hard intervals to be equivalent to a race. That’s why it’s better to do one race/VO2 session and one tempo session a week. That way you can still increase the mileage from a solid 40-60 to 60-80 throughout the fall. I believe the programs that are doing well at nationals in December are doing this.
Coach C, it sounds like you know your stuff, but have you used this method with various runners and had a lot of success? With letsrun, it’s hard to know if the person giving advice is a successful coach or just some hobby jogger
He briefly coached me and when we first started he said he taught Jack Daniels everything he knows, no joke..... I thought to myself, Jack Daniels is probably 30 years older than Tom Scwartz.. Anyway, his training is solid, but nothing revolutionary. His kids in "tinman elite" drank the coolaide and as a bi-product of their social media vomiting, he has gained traction. Overall, his training is good, but I didn't feel like I would fulfill my potential with him and the hubris drove me crazy. Solid principles though.
This argument gets brought up a lot: tinman has a solid philosophy but his runners will never reach/maximize their potential.
Why? Can somebody explain this?
His moderate training is good, very safe and effect, BUT if you want get everything out of yourself you have to push the envelope once in awhile. Tom doesn’t advocate this and he doesn’t encourage pushing it with mileage either, which for the marathon you just have to do. There is no way around it. Running 90mi a week will not get any of his top marathoners under 2:10, sorry ain’t gonna happen.
YungRunna wrote:
I am currently a sophomore in high school and have have ran a 4:16 mile this current track season so far. I was wondering what are some main aspects of the Tinman approach during the base phase going into this cross country season. I want to try to be running under 15 minutes for 5k throughout the season. I am doing 50-60 miles this summer as well (currently doing 40s).
What general runs would the average week hold based on the tinman approach? I was thinking about doing tinman tempo type of run on a hilly course frequently ( not more than once a week) then a long run each week. What other things should I incorporate into my training during my base phase?
Should I do runs with pick-ups during them (fartlek type runs) or hill workouts as well over the summer?
Don't get caught up in a fad like Tinman. Instead pick up a Lydiard book and learn the reasons behind why you are doing things. Lydiard is old but the principles he came up with still hold true in any good training program. The things you learn from Lydiard will serve you much better in the long run.
fdbrrtgref wrote:
YungRunna wrote:
I am currently a sophomore in high school and have have ran a 4:16 mile this current track season so far. I was wondering what are some main aspects of the Tinman approach during the base phase going into this cross country season. I want to try to be running under 15 minutes for 5k throughout the season. I am doing 50-60 miles this summer as well (currently doing 40s).
What general runs would the average week hold based on the tinman approach? I was thinking about doing tinman tempo type of run on a hilly course frequently ( not more than once a week) then a long run each week. What other things should I incorporate into my training during my base phase?
Should I do runs with pick-ups during them (fartlek type runs) or hill workouts as well over the summer?
If these numbers are true you are super talented. You should send Tom an email and inquire about personal coaching. I was an average talent and my parents paid him to coach me in high school. This was years ago, and it was money well spent. You only have this opportunity in front of you once.
Another option would be to go to the Project Gold camp next month where he coaches. Several HS guys he personally coaches will be there and you can hang out with them and talk training. A 4:12 freshman, a 9:10/14:47 freshman, etc.
raceracerace wrote:
Yes.. wrote:
Yes
A lot of high school programs race just about every weekend for 8-10 weeks in fall and then 8-10 weeks in spring. These programs that are racing every week and then having a hard VO2max session, such as 5-6x1000 at 5 k pace or 5-6x800 at 3k pace, is that detrimental to the kids, especially the faster kids? Any experienced and successful coaches out there that can lend their thoughts. I've been concerned that some of my athletes, especially the more devoted ones, are getting tired in the middle of the season and am looking at different things to do in my program, in hopes of keeping them strong throughout the whole season.
The thought is, as far as I'm aware, that the race is the v02max stimulus for the week
Justin,
Why not trust what your coach is currently doing if you seem to be progressing?
When I saw you close the last lap of the 3200 at State in a 56 I was certain that whatever you’re doing is working just fine.
Tinman! Tinman! Timnan!
I have a different coach for track and cross country. My track coach retired after this season, and just moved to Pennsylvania, so this was my last year working with him. He is a solid coach, and knew what he was doing (had been coaching for quite a while...I'm going to miss him). However, my cross country coach is a different story. I pretty much tried everything I could to at least get in a few quality workouts through the season because I wasted many days on junk workouts that were out of place (and hurt me by the time late season races rolled around). She coached day by day, and never had an actual training plan. I tried to make sure I was still getting in at least some descent training through the season, so I could have a shot at winning state. This season she is still technically the head coach, but she is pregnant and is due in August. This means I will have a large amount of control on my training this year, and I am looking forward to making the most of it.
I don't have any spectacular coaches or anything. I have learned a lot on my own and have had to make sure I am still getting in some quality training in order to keep myself on a good trajectory.
I appreciate that, and I will definitely read his book. When I say the Tinman philosophy, I moreso just mean the principles that he focuses on. I know his actual training isn't anything groundbreaking or new, I just like his principles and recent success. I have read other books about training from other guys as well. I just use Tinman because he has gained a lot of traction recently, and he coached Drew Hunter in high school.
Hdjrrjfhsjdh wrote:
This argument gets brought up a lot: tinman has a solid philosophy but his runners will never reach/maximize their potential.
Why? Can somebody explain this?
Too moderate, never push the envelope, poor periodisation and not enough emphasis on peaking. Want to reach your max potential, look up Lydiard.
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