Army West Point Cheated at IC4A Championships

steve dildarian wrote:

Yeah it seems pretty clear that they wanted to see who was entered in both events and then decided to mail in the 5000m. I don't respect that.

It's 100% cheating. No question about it.

He should have been DQ'd and not allowed to race the 10k.

The coach has dishonored the entire NCAA.

Are we not gonna? wrote:

Are we not gonna talk about the kid who ran 2:19 for his last lap? Had to have been the slowest lap ive ever seen in a competitive race.

He still beat Petrella by more than 3 minutes.

Besides, what are you accusing him of? He didn't pace anyone in the race and he didn't race anything after that.

If you wanted to complain about Iona having 2 pacers in the 5k (who both dropped out) then you'd have a valid point. Can't do that in a championship meet.

Alright dude, the true story of this is that Ben never intended on racing the 5k, error or not in scratching does not matter. The intent was to go to IC4A to possibly improve his 10k time in the regional rankings. Since he could not DNS the 5k he used it as his warm up for the 10k. The IC4A is a joke of a championship meet, anyone notice how Army only sent 2 distance runners to the meet when about a dozen qualified? Yeah, nobody cares about this “championship.” And to the individual who claims that this is why Navy beats us, I would like to point out that we won 2/3 dual meets and Patriot League titles.

Beat Navy,

Rest.

Army runner wrote:

Alright dude, the true story of this is that Ben never intended on racing the 5k, error or not in scratching does not matter.

So why was he entered?

You gotta qualify for this meet... You don't take a position away from somebody by entering an athlete. If they hit the standard then they are allowed in the meet

What a great attitude you and your team have. Reflects really well on Army/West Point.....

Army runner wrote:

Alright dude, the true story of this is that Ben never intended on racing the 5k, error or not in scratching does not matter. The intent was to go to IC4A to possibly improve his 10k time in the regional rankings. Since he could not DNS the 5k he used it as his warm up for the 10k. The IC4A is a joke of a championship meet, anyone notice how Army only sent 2 distance runners to the meet when about a dozen qualified? Yeah, nobody cares about this “championship.” And to the individual who claims that this is why Navy beats us, I would like to point out that we won 2/3 dual meets and Patriot League titles.

Beat Navy,

Rest.

Your lack of class and respect proves everyone's suspicion that Army West Point is severely lacking in integrity.

You also just admitted there was no honest effort in the 5k. Your coach is a cheater.

I've met this kid and he has MORE INTEGRITY in his pinky finger than any of you will show in the entirety of your lives.

First of all you clearly were never an elite runner of any caliber or you would understand that the athlete doesn't pick the approach, the coach does. They might get some say, but the ultimate plan belongs to Smith. Second, cheating helps an athlete gain a competitive advantage. Ben's race did not earn him any sort of edge. Rule violation? Possibly, but that is still a subjective decision. Cheating? Absolutely not. Finally, how on earth do you attack his integrity? Ben was recruited to the top schools in the US and chose to go into the Army instead in order to give back to his country. What have you done that gives you the moral high ground to attack his character?

More Integrity wrote:

I've met this kid and he has MORE INTEGRITY in his pinky finger than any of you will show in the entirety of your lives.

First of all you clearly were never an elite runner of any caliber or you would understand that the athlete doesn't pick the approach, the coach does. They might get some say, but the ultimate plan belongs to Smith. Second, cheating helps an athlete gain a competitive advantage. Ben's race did not earn him any sort of edge. Rule violation? Possibly, but that is still a subjective decision. Cheating? Absolutely not. Finally, how on earth do you attack his integrity? Ben was recruited to the top schools in the US and chose to go into the Army instead in order to give back to his country. What have you done that gives you the moral high ground to attack his character?

Unless I missed something, no one in this thread have been questioning the integrity of the athlete. We know it starts from the coach.

It is not subjective that he violated the honest effort rule. Even those defending the action don't claim it was a honest effort. They just say the rule is stupid and thus should be ignored.

Great message to send to our military. They don't have to be accountable to rules they feel are stupid.

So you believe that just his mere presence in this race affected the outcome? You have clearly never been an ICAAAA qualifier or you would understand the way races normally go down there. The coach made a mistake, Army dealt with it the best they could. Several runners have chimed in and explained what happened already. What's more likely, that every single one of them is lying or that your tiny amount of running knowledge combined with a few splits has revealed the truth? Move on.

You Must Be Joking wrote:

The coach made a mistake

Didn't Air Force screw up recently and fail to declare a big chunk of their team for a championship meet?

Here I thought discipline was a big thing in the armed forces. Guess not.

joedirt wrote:

I would expect more out of the race organizer. What sort of a moran puts the 5k and the 10k back to back? They wouldn't put the 100 and 200 back to back.

Can we please talk more about this? While a rules violation may technically have occurred, I think it deserves a pass because of this stupid schedule that really puts coaches in a tough spot. If it really was a championship meet, the 5k and 10k would never, ever be scheduled back to back. However, this sort of schedule is very common at big invitationals designed to produce fast times for regionals and whatnot. At these meets coaches frequently enter athletes in both the 5k and 10k and then make a game time decision about which one to race.

My point is that while it is a championship meet on paper, the scheduling betrays that it is not actually a championship meet but is actually designed to be a qualifier. If it was actually a championship meet, the races would be scheduled as far apart as possible so athletes could do both. If you disagree, then put the blame on the meet director for deciding to schedule the races in this matter. Stop calling the coach and especially the athlete dishonest and cheaters.

The runner from Army West Point that got on here should be ashamed of himself. Army dealt with it the best way they could? Are you kidding me? Not running him would have been the legal and ethical thing to do. The meet may be a joke. That is completely unrelated to the incident. They violated the honest effort rule and that is not at all in dispute. You cannot just follow the rules that you agree with. Don’t play the sport if the rules are too stupid for you. This absolutely reflects poorly on the coach and the academy.

Put the blame on the meet Director? Wow! You make me laugh. Somehow the meet Director forced the Army coach to enter his guy in 2 events. Ok, the Army coach screwed up. He compounded that by violating a rule. Does he think he is above the rule? No idea but I do know the rule was broken. Honest effort - of which there was none.

This year was the 143rd IC4A Outdoor Championship. It's much older than the NCAA. In order to stay relevant, they made some changes so that the meet can be an opportunity to qualify for NCAA Regionals.

For example, they took out prelims for the 800 and 1500. Not sure the exact reasoning for putting the 5k and 10k back to back, but the IC4A certainly doesn't need to conform to conventional norms when it's the oldest championship track meet in the nation.

It's always been a championship meet and the scratch rule has always existed. The coach told his athlete to jog in violation of the honest effort rule. Even his teammate said he wasn't trying. That's dishonest and it's cheating. Petrella should give his gold medal to the kid that got 2nd in the 10k.

You Must Be Joking wrote:

So you believe that just his mere presence in this race affected the outcome? You have clearly never been an ICAAAA qualifier or you would understand the way races normally go down there. The coach made a mistake, Army dealt with it the best they could. Several runners have chimed in and explained what happened already. What's more likely, that every single one of them is lying or that your tiny amount of running knowledge combined with a few splits has revealed the truth? Move on.

He won the race, of course his presence affected the outcome!

The implications go beyond who won and who lost the race, too. They were also racing to hit a regional qualifying time. Ben wanted to make sure nobody in the 10k jumped ahead of him on the performance list. He shouldn't have been allowed to race the 10k, but instead they cheated and he was essentially racing people for a spot at regionals.

Very shameful.

More Integrity wrote:

I've met this kid and he has MORE INTEGRITY in his pinky finger than any of you will show in the entirety of your lives.

Like hell he does. Mailing in the 5000m was pure cowardice.

steve dildarian wrote:

More Integrity wrote:

I've met this kid and he has MORE INTEGRITY in his pinky finger than any of you will show in the entirety of your lives.

Like hell he does. Mailing in the 5000m was pure cowardice.

I agree. I think the coach deserves a lot more of the blame, but they both behaved like cowards.

They need to make a big deal of this on social media; otherwise it will be buried and the media cycle will move on.

I do think there is fear for calling out the troops as well on a lot of peoples' parts, plus they are worried about political blowback.

And I'm pro-Army and pro-military as anyone out there, but I think they are afraid to rock the cart here.