Bodybuilding vs Running

Creatine only helps for sprinters, I believe. I tried using it anyway, for muscle recovery, but it ultimately just makes you gain weight you don't need for longer distance running. Plus it's not good for your kidneys.

I pop a caffeine pill every day, 2 cups of coffee worth of caffeine.

I'll let the hard-core runners/anorexics answer your question better.

Not exactly sure when it really started in running, but cycling has always been a chemical war since the beginning. Early 1900s cyclist used rat poison, alcohol, cocaine and other drugs. Starting in the 30s or so with the introduction of amphetamines and synthetic testosterone, cyclist start using that probably after the war. Than in the 40s there were the first studies done on blood transfusions improving endurance. I would not be surprised if it(blood doping) started in the before the 60s. We know for sure some runners started using transfusions in the 70s. The 1984 US Olympic cycling team did blood transfusions at that Olympics. Than the 90s begin the era of EPO and HGH. Now since testing has gotten tighter, it is now the era of grey zone stuff like you see with NOP and doctors like Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt who use Actovegin. Actovegin is what I suspect is the secret sauce that most elite level runners are using now, it is not on the banned list. And has many performance enhancing effects. Than like NOP does, you can take high doses of vitamin d, l carnitine, thyroid medications and TUEs for stuff like asthma inhalers. And lastly there are designer steroids like some baseball players used in the MLB that are gummies and are out of your system within a few hours, I would not doubt if there is a blood boosting equivalent of these gummies.

I do not believe that anyone at the top of our sport has the cojones, the will or the motivation to properly hold drug takers to account. all they are interested in is papering over a few cracks to give the impression they care, whilst blatantly ignoring highly organised, widespread, policy approved drug taking and nefarious tactics with the sole intent of maximising the amount of money the sport can make for their various organisations.

neither the IAAF, the IOC, WADA or anyone else cares about anything other than money. they have spent the last thirty years making this abundantly clear and anyone who cannot see it does not want to.

as a sport, track and field is finished. it is now nothing more than an adjunct to the entertainment industry and so-called "professional athletes," are merely actors on a stage ad-libbing their lines for a fee while hamming it up for the cameras.

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I don't believe they hold their athletes to the standard of WADA...

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Man, this is a funny post. Let's just imagine that most elite runners are on some form of PED, which is probably true. The difference this makes in their performance is probably less than 5%, assuming they haven't found some secret way to take and hide EPO.

For the bodybuilder? That dude who wins Olympia at 5'8", 270 and 4% bodyfat would be 5'8", 215 and 6% bodyfat if he wasn't on the sauce. It's daylight and dark. There is no one on earth who can come close to the way top level bodybuilders look without taking roids. No one. There are people who can come close to elite running performances without PEDs.

Btw, creatine is probably the only non-steroid, GNC type supplement that does anything. Maybe HMB as well. But these are marginal gains.

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Where's da Weight Woom wrote:

I was never much of a runner in college but was trying to put on some mass and strength in the gym. I quickly realized through observation and the equivalent of the lets's run message boards - the body building .com forums - that supplements and at a higher level "gear" are a big part of bodybuilding. They don't try to hide it. They don't really deny it.

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Where's da Weight Woom wrote:

I was never much of a runner in college but was trying to put on some mass and strength in the gym. I quickly realized through observation and the equivalent of the lets's run message boards - the body building .com forums - that supplements and at a higher level "gear" are a big part of bodybuilding. They don't try to hide it. They don't really deny it.

The funny thing is...I think that bodybuilding competitions do have a drug test; it's pretty much a joke. I don't believe they hold their athletes to the standard of WADA with in season random drug tests.

However - I follow the doping threads on lets run and was interested in the comparison of bodybuilding to running.

I saw one thread that most of the top 100 meter sprinters had at some point tested positive. Also I've read opinions that most of the distance world records are not clean and most of the athletes in a final at WC or Olympics in any event are at minimum suspect.

Does running become or is running becoming bodybuilding in terms of chemical enhancement? How many guys at the gym take creatine and protein and ripped fuel and whatever else they're peddling at GNC. While it's not as visually obvious - how many runners take supplements to assist.

Also there's always a guy or 2 at the gym on the roids. Pretty clear. It's a little more obvious because you can see their progress with their muscle mass. But...is recreational distance running going to become like that where every group or every route will have guys/gals who are on some "higher level" pharmaceuticals? I have heard amateur cycling is already like this.

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natty fatty wrote:

Creatine only helps for sprinters, I believe. I tried using it anyway, for muscle recovery, but it ultimately just makes you gain weight you don't need for longer distance running. Plus it's not good for your kidneys.

I pop a caffeine pill every day, 2 cups of coffee worth of caffeine.

I'll let the hard-core runners/anorexics answer your question better.

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Coevett wrote:

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Where's da Weight Woom wrote:

I was never much of a runner in college but was trying to put on some mass and strength in the gym. I quickly realized through observation and the equivalent of the lets's run message boards - the body building .com forums - that supplements and at a higher level "gear" are a big part of bodybuilding. They don't try to hide it. They don't really deny it.

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Well that's one part of your answer. I doubt if you'd overhear competitors even at a local 5K openly bragging about how much EPO they injected that morning. If there is an equivalent doping culture in running, it's at least hidden (leaving aside the doping apologists on this board, who are always anonymous anyway).

Most 'bodybuilders' in they gym never compete, even a amateur local shows. Most 'runners' do compete even occasionally at a local 5K or a marathon once a year.

Most 'bodybuilders' take steroids because it has 24/7 benefits of having bigger muscles that are permanently on display. It's get them girls, respect of other dudes etc every time they walk down the street.

99.99% of runners are amateurs or hobby joggers. Why would people take EPO or HGH just so that they could finish 10th in their local 5K rather than 30th or finish higher up a Strava segment leaderboard or such like? Not really worth the benefit is it, or the feeling of being a cheat, which to most non-psychopaths, is still an uncomfortable feeling to endure.

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cotton shirt wrote:

I do not believe that anyone at the top of our sport has the cojones, the will or the motivation to properly hold drug takers to account. all they are interested in is papering over a few cracks to give the impression they care, whilst blatantly ignoring highly organised, widespread, policy approved drug taking and nefarious tactics with the sole intent of maximising the amount of money the sport can make for their various organisations.
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I've been through a P5 program and know many runners from other P5 schools and now in the elite runner world. Very few runners are taking 'sketchy' stuff. Many will take iron supplements or regular old vitamins. There are however the occasional teams/coaches that make it a point to take thyroid medication to keep weight down near a race or something similar to that. Thankfully I've never been in that environment.

I think the more rare cases of pure doping, like EPO or other things, aren't nearly as common. But the people doing that are the ones that have found themselves at or near the top and will do anything to stay there.

And from my experience in the NCAA the teams are so close and you're always with other runners, I don't know how someone would hide that. But if you're an elite post-collegiate runner that doesn't train in a training group, it would be more likely in my opinion.

A body builder taking protein and creatine is like a runner eating a salad and popping an iron pill. Creatine is the most tested supplement ever and does not damage the kidneys.

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Coevett wrote:

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Where's da Weight Woom wrote:

I was never much of a runner in college but was trying to put on some mass and strength in the gym. I quickly realized through observation and the equivalent of the lets's run message boards - the body building .com forums - that supplements and at a higher level "gear" are a big part of bodybuilding. They don't try to hide it. They don't really deny it.

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Well that's one part of your answer. I doubt if you'd overhear competitors even at a local 5K openly bragging about how much EPO they injected that morning. If there is an equivalent doping culture in running, it's at least hidden (leaving aside the doping apologists on this board, who are always anonymous anyway).

Most 'bodybuilders' in they gym never compete, even a amateur local shows. Most 'runners' do compete even occasionally at a local 5K or a marathon once a year.

Most 'bodybuilders' take steroids because it has 24/7 benefits of having bigger muscles that are permanently on display. It's get them girls, respect of other dudes etc every time they walk down the street.

99.99% of runners are amateurs or hobby joggers. Why would people take EPO or HGH just so that they could finish 10th in their local 5K rather than 30th or finish higher up a Strava segment leaderboard or such like? Not really worth the benefit is it, or the feeling of being a cheat, which to most non-psychopaths, is still an uncomfortable feeling to endure.

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Rich Piana wrote:

Man, this is a funny post. Let's just imagine that most elite runners are on some form of PED, which is probably true. The difference this makes in their performance is probably less than 5%, assuming they haven't found some secret way to take and hide EPO.

For the bodybuilder? That dude who wins Olympia at 5'8", 270 and 4% bodyfat would be 5'8", 215 and 6% bodyfat if he wasn't on the sauce. It's daylight and dark. There is no one on earth who can come close to the way top level bodybuilders look without taking roids. No one. There are people who can come close to elite running performances without PEDs.

Btw, creatine is probably the only non-steroid, GNC type supplement that does anything. Maybe HMB as well. But these are marginal gains.

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Gfr wrote:

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natty fatty wrote:

Creatine only helps for sprinters, I believe. I tried using it anyway, for muscle recovery, but it ultimately just makes you gain weight you don't need for longer distance running. Plus it's not good for your kidneys.

I pop a caffeine pill every day, 2 cups of coffee worth of caffeine.

I'll let the hard-core runners/anorexics answer your question better.

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Creatine is not "bad for your kidneys." Where do you people get this $hit?

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Coevett wrote:

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Where's da Weight Woom wrote:

I was never much of a runner in college but was trying to put on some mass and strength in the gym. I quickly realized through observation and the equivalent of the lets's run message boards - the body building .com forums - that supplements and at a higher level "gear" are a big part of bodybuilding. They don't try to hide it. They don't really deny it.

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Well that's one part of your answer. I doubt if you'd overhear competitors even at a local 5K openly bragging about how much EPO they injected that morning. If there is an equivalent doping culture in running, it's at least hidden (leaving aside the doping apologists on this board, who are always anonymous anyway).

Most 'bodybuilders' in they gym never compete, even a amateur local shows. Most 'runners' do compete even occasionally at a local 5K or a marathon once a year.

Most 'bodybuilders' take steroids because it has 24/7 benefits of having bigger muscles that are permanently on display. It's get them girls, respect of other dudes etc every time they walk down the street.

99.99% of runners are amateurs or hobby joggers. Why would people take EPO or HGH just so that they could finish 10th in their local 5K rather than 30th or finish higher up a Strava segment leaderboard or such like? Not really worth the benefit is it, or the feeling of being a cheat, which to most non-psychopaths, is still an uncomfortable feeling to endure.

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Creatine is not "bad for your kidneys." Where do you people get this $hit?[/quote]

Creatine can slightly raise levels of creatinine in your blood. Creatinine is commonly measured to diagnose kidney or liver problems.

However, the fact that creatine raises creatinine levels does not mean that it is harming your liver or kidneys (21).

To date, no study of creatine use in healthy individuals has provided evidence of harm to these organs (1, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26).

A long-term study of college athletes found no side effects related to liver or kidney function. Other studies measuring biological markers in the urine also found no difference after creatine ingestion (27).

One of the longest studies to date — lasting for four years — similarly concluded that creatine has no negative side effects (24).

Another popular study often cited in the media reported kidney disease in a male weightlifter who supplemented with creatine (28).

However, this single case study is insufficient evidence. Numerous other factors, including additional supplements, were also involved (26, 28).

That said, creatine supplements should be approached with caution if you have a history of liver or kidney issues.

SUMMARY
Current research suggests that creatine does not cause liver or kidney problems.
Does It Cause Digestive Problems?
As with many supplements or medications, excessive doses may cause digestive issues.

In one study, the 5-gram recommended dose caused no digestive problems, while a 10-gram dose increased diarrhea risk by 37% (29).

For this reason, the recommended serving is set at 3–5 grams. The 20-gram loading protocol is also split into four servings of 5 grams each over the course of a day (1).

One leading researcher reviewed several studies and concluded that creatine does not increase digestive problems when taken at recommended doses (30).

However, it is possible that additives, ingredients, or contaminants generated during the industrial production of creatine can lead to issues (21, 31).

It is therefore recommended that you purchase a trusted, high-quality product.

SUMMARY
Creatine does not increase digestive issues when the recommended dosages and loading guidelines are followed.
How Does It Interact With Other Drugs?
As with any diet or supplement regimen, it is best to discuss your creatine plans with a doctor or other medical professional before you start.

You may also wish to avoid creatine supplements if you are taking any medications that affect liver or kidney function.

Medications that may interact with creatine include cyclosporine, aminoglycosides, gentamicin, tobramycin, anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen, and numerous others (7).

Creatine can help improve blood sugar management, so if you are using medication known to affect blood sugar, you should discuss creatine use with a doctor (5).

You should also consult a medical professional if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or have a serious condition, such as heart disease or cancer.

SUMMARY
Creatine may cause problems if you take certain types of medications, including medications that affect blood sugar.
Other Potential Side Effects
Some people suggest that creatine can lead to compartment syndrome, a condition that occurs when excessive pressure builds inside an enclosed space — usually within arm or leg muscles.

Although one study found an increase in muscle pressure during two hours of heat training, it resulted mainly from heat and exercise-induced dehydration — not from creatine (32).

Researchers also concluded the pressure was short-lived and insignificant.

Some claim that creatine supplements increase your risk of rhabdomyolysis, a condition in which muscle breaks down and leaks proteins into your bloodstream. However, this idea is not supported by any evidence.

The myth originated because a marker in your blood called creatine kinase increases with creatine supplements (32).

However, this slight increase is quite different from the large amounts of creatine kinase associated with rhabdomyolysis. Interestingly, some experts even suggest creatine may protect against this condition (32, 33).

Some people also confuse creatine with anabolic steroids, but this is yet another myth. Creatine is a completely natural and legal substance found in your body and in foods — such as meat — with no link to steroids (7).

Finally, there is a misconception that creatine is suitable only for male athletes, not for older adults, women, or children. However, no research suggests that it is unsuitable in recommended doses for women or older adults (1).

Unlike most supplements, creatine has been given to children as a medical intervention for certain conditions, such as neuromuscular disorders or muscle loss.

Studies lasting as long as three years have uncovered no negative effects of creatine in children (1, 4, 34).

SUMMARY
Research has consistently confirmed creatine’s excellent safety profile. There is no evidence that it causes adverse conditions like rhabdomyolysis or compartment syndrome.
The Bottom Line
Creatine has been used for more than a century, and over 500 studies support its safety and effectiveness.

It also provides many benefits for muscle and performance, may improve markers of health, and is being used in medical settings to help treat a variety of diseases (1, 4, 5).

At the end of the day, creatine is one of the cheapest, most effective, and safest supplements available.

The cheapest, most effective, and safe supplement is testosterone.

Small doses (~100mg/wk) will raise your hematocrit to over 50 in just a few weeks, and your recovery will be superhuman. This is very far below any WADA test detectible level.

To compare, a "beginner" dose for bodybuilding or is 500mg/wk.

Just a guess, but *most* high level athletes (endurance) micro-dose test or do small doses of other things (Winstrol or Anavar).