Road Racing and Training Thread Week ending Dec 9 2018

Good on you for sticking it out in Tempe Town Lake! I've raced a handful of 70.3s and below, but like you, much prefer running so kicked all the other stuff to the curb.

Working Harder wrote:

Good on you for sticking it out in Tempe Town Lake! I've raced a handful of 70.3s and below, but like you, much prefer running so kicked all the other stuff to the curb.

Nice! Yeah I'm still planning on a 70.3 in CT (closeby) and the NYC Tri midyear just to mix things up between Boston and NYCM, but I suspect even during that training I'll have more motivation to prioritize running.

Holy cow yes lake was so cold, definitely had a few moments of panic and was so glad to get out of the water.

I might do the running leg of a half IM relay next summer but it's like $450 for a team so I'm not heartbroken if it doesn't come together.

I failed to keep it sunny-side up on my cruise/progression run this morning. Hit an ice patch and landed on my knee. Stairs aren't fun currently so we'll see how I feel tomorrow morning.

Then just as I was about to eat lunch at ~1:10 I get email asking why I'm not in an important meeting (I had it on the calendar for tomorrow at 1pm!!!) that I was supposed to present at. Ended up having a fruit and coffee lunch at the meeting (is that RRR approved?) as we didn't finish until 3:30.

With travel, sickness and now falling I'm having a hard time getting into a training groove. Oh well, April is a long time away still and July even farther.

Hey Still,

Maybe this should be obvious, but what to you mean by "fatigue." Is it what Smoove called "a stretched thin" feeling? Do you mean that your legs never felt recovered from one workout to the next? Was it only legs or are we talking about a "yawning in the afternoon and looking forward to sleeping" overall fatigue? I'm curious for my obviously selfish reasons, but also because of an insight that I had yesterday that is, again, maybe pretty obvious to everyone else who uses Daniels.

I've mentioned in the past that I had been really "challenged" (to put it mildly) by using Daniels plans and the boards are littered with threads about how 2Q is difficult ("insane" I believe on one thread). Everyone has their ideas about how to modify the plan, but mostly the modifications are adjusting volume, either of the E runs overall, or the volume of work on certain Q days. But the other variable is, of course, your chosen VDOT.

Some people who don't have enough experience with the Daniels stuff might see the VDOT as a "given" rather than a "variable" because it is based on "a recent race performance." And then there are those who begin training at GOAL VDOT. And those who assume their 5k VDOT is equal to their marathon VDOT training paces. What I'm thinking is that, at the right VDOT, previously "insane" workouts might prove to be only slightly "nuts." But ultimately for most of us hobby joggers with race times all over the place, VDOT has to be chosen well in order for the training to be executable and effective.

Which brings me to your experience of running a cycle at a lower VDOT than your ultimate race VDOT. Given the spectacular results, it's not hard to look back and say your training paces were well chosen (as darkwave suggested). Maybe your fatigued body chose them instead of your ambitious mind, but consider the possible consequences if you had tried to train where your ambition placed you on the VDOT tables as opposed to what your body gave you. (Yes, I realize I'm sounding like too hot, here. I forget how he phrased it exactly, but after hearing it so many times in so many ways over so many years, too hot once expressed that idea in a way that made something click for me.)

These thoughts coalesced after running my Q2 yesterday while I was going through the data. Running by HR (what my body chooses for me), the pace is 2.5 VDOTS lower than what my ambition would have targeted (around 48.5 vs 51) (for both the M and T paces) according to that famous Daniels Training Tables Excel spreadsheet.

Instead of feeling depressed, I felt really pleased because the Q workouts both felt "right" whereas in the past my overly ambitious VDOT paces left me with that "insane" feeling. Now, I have only that "fatigued" feeling that I think I'm supposed to have.

So, that's probably just a long way of saying a lot of guys would probably benefit from dropping back a VDOT or two unless they're very certain that they've got it right. That's essentially what you, Still, ended up doing, with great results.

As I'm cooling down and taking it home yesterday, I was recalling a few of the Jack Daniels videos I saw on YouTube. He's a guy, not just a plan. I had this flash of understanding that if Coach Daniels had been my coach a few years ago when I tried to coach myself using his book, he would have been standing at the end of one of my reps with a smile and a laugh and saying, "Hey, slow the hell down." I was too much of a novice to know I was working wayyyy too hard. But I think he would have given me a "Good work, today" after both of this week's Q days.

I'm an entry-level Daniels user, so if anyone thinks I'm off on these observations, I'm willing to learn.

Those are good questions CJ.

By fatigue I do mean just fatigue and a general soreness in the legs. Yawning in the afternoon would be attributed to lifestyle choices and a large lunch.

I'm going to approach the rest from my perspective and some may disagree.

Sure the 2Q workouts are challenging. The workout portions of the runs are large in volume but combined into a long run with a good bit of easy miles before starting the workout makes them more challenging. I put a priority on the weekend Q1 runs. For the Q2 runs I would at a minimum trim the leading easy miles off and sometimes trim some of the workout volume. I just did not want to spend more than 90min running on a weekday which was almost always in the dark. This last cycle I tried to focus on either keeping the mileage up or increasing the mileage. That meant that I would try not to trim the mileage on easy days but slow those runs down more than usual so that I could keep the mileage up. The insane thread if I remember correctly had to do with a higher mileage plan and it was speculated that it may have been a typo. Also, remember that the advice is that if you are considering two workouts take the less strenuous of the two. That really helped relieve some of the stress of making the decision of doing a smaller workout then planned.

For the VDOT paces I would say put VDOT paces aside unless you lack experience and don't know where to start for a particular training intensity. In your case I would go by perceived effort and backstop that with HR, but don't get too keyed up with HR. My workout HR is different when doing a workout in 75F and humid vs. 36F. This way there is less pressure on hitting a specific pace and gives a wider range of acceptable HR.

It is good that you that your recent Q runs felt right. In the end I think you are right in dialing things back as needed. Again those are some big workouts and if it is a bit slower than you wanted keep in mind that the workout at this volume is still productive.

Ha. I did that Q2 workout yesterday and had that exact sentiment. "Holy carp! Soup to nuts that's a 2.5-3 hour time commitment!" Planning and flexibility will be essential to have the time midweek.

Yeah, this is pretty much my attitude, though I plan to err on the side of target HR over target pace. Yesterday's 5k T was straight into a 20kph headwind and the 3k was with a tailwind. By staying in the same HR range, I felt no pressure at all about what pace I should be running in those conditions.

One thing I consciously did was honor the Daniels "do as little as possible to get the result you want" philosophy. I have the workout programed into the Garmin to beep when I leave the HR range either out the bottom or over the top (two different tones). So, on the first M or T rep, every few minutes if I hadn't heard a "low beep," I would ease up just a bit until I beeped the bottom of the range. On the second rep, especially near the end of the rep, I wanted to be beeping the high end.

I felt the fatigue you described on Monday after Sunday's Q1, but I was recovered (fully, I felt) for Wednesday's Q2. Today is Thursday and I feel maybe a little less fatigued than I did on Monday, but that's probably just a quirk. Anyway, sorry for bugging you so much. It's just a comfort to be able to check in about a few things. Much appreciated.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

Which brings me to your experience of running a cycle at a lower VDOT than your ultimate race VDOT. Given the spectacular results, it's not hard to look back and say your training paces were well chosen (as darkwave suggested). Maybe your fatigued body chose them instead of your ambitious mind, but consider the possible consequences if you had tried to train where your ambition placed you on the VDOT tables as opposed to what your body gave you. (Yes, I realize I'm sounding like too hot, here. I forget how he phrased it exactly, but after hearing it so many times in so many ways over so many years, too hot once expressed that idea in a way that made something click for me.)

I like to think of it in terms of allowing the pace to come to you. Essentially that's what I have found works best from an effort standpoint. Someone like Smoove or SI who are experienced enough to know their own bodies can make adjustments but in other cases the charts are an all too easy way to get sucked into a maladaptive pace. In my opinion, I think this stems not just from a lack of experience but from a lack of confidence.

That's what it was! "Let the pace come to you."

If my wife ever lets me have a cat, I'm gonna name her Pace, cuz sometimes she comes to you and sometimes she don't. All you can do is run till you smell like tuna and hope she's hungry. The cat, I mean. My wife is indifferent to tuna.

Hungry cats are great for reminding you to wake up at 5:30 a.m. to feed them and then you go run since you’re not falling asleep again at that point so might as well.

You are not bugging me at all. I am happy to answer any questions you have and participate in the dialogue here so don't hesitate to ask. Being in similar shape and age gives us a good point of reference for comparing notes. I have benefited from this thread and have had my own questions like earlier this week and don't mind taking my time to pay my dues.

Sub 6:00 wrote:

Hungry cats are great for reminding you to wake up at 5:30 a.m. to feed them and then you go run since you’re not falling asleep again at that point so might as well.

This is why you feed the cats after you get back from your run. On the weekend I get woken up at 7 instead of 5:30.

Daylight savings time is a struggle though. "Why is human not up yet?"

pewow wrote:

Sub 6:00 wrote:

Hungry cats are great for reminding you to wake up at 5:30 a.m. to feed them and then you go run since you’re not falling asleep again at that point so might as well.

This is why you feed the cats after you get back from your run. On the weekend I get woken up at 7 instead of 5:30.

Daylight savings time is a struggle though. "Why is human not up yet?"

This is why you get a dog instead.

pewow wrote:

Sub 6:00 wrote:

Hungry cats are great for reminding you to wake up at 5:30 a.m. to feed them and then you go run since you’re not falling asleep again at that point so might as well.

This is why you feed the cats after you get back from your run. On the weekend I get woken up at 7 instead of 5:30.

Daylight savings time is a struggle though. "Why is human not up yet?"

Yep my cat gets really excited when I get back from the AM run cause he knows breakfast follows shortly.

Questions for those with Vaporfly's. How do they fit? I'm really tempted to get a pair.. Everyone is wearing them now, and may have to join them.

I have the following shoes, if you could relate to the sizing (half a size up, down, etc.), that would be great

Pegasus 34

Epic React Flyknit

Asics Hyperspeed 7

Zoom Streak LT4

Kinvara 8

Zoom Rival 6

(Altras are the rest, but I don't think any of you guys wear them)

THANKS!

I just bought 2 pairs of Zoom Streak LT4 for 39€ total and they are 1 size up of my usual nike shoes (Zoom elite 9s)...

Zoomfly -10

Pegasus 35-10

Kinvara/Peregrine - 10

Epic React - 10

Wild horse - 10

Vaporfly 4% fly knit - 9.5

Jeremy R wrote:

Questions for those with Vaporfly's. How do they fit? I'm really tempted to get a pair.. Everyone is wearing them now, and may have to join them.(Altras are the rest, but I don't think any of you guys wear them)

THANKS!

I can't compare to any of those shoes. I can tell you that the earlier VFs and the Flyknit VFs fit differently, with the Flyknits being much snugger than the originals.

I wear a size 6 in the Streak 6, and also both the original VF and the Flyknit VF. (all these are the men's shoes - they don't make any of those for women specifically)

However, I wear very thin socks in both the Streak 6 and the Flyknit VF, while I have to wear very thick smartwool socks in the original VFs to force a correct fit.

(why didn't I just size down in the original VFs? Well....you try finding a size 5.5 original VF....)

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

pewow wrote:

This is why you feed the cats after you get back from your run. On the weekend I get woken up at 7 instead of 5:30.

Daylight savings time is a struggle though. "Why is human not up yet?"

This is why you get a dog instead.

The cat would evict me if I got a dog. :(

I’m a 14 in pretty much everything (Vomero, peg, lunar glide, streak) except the Vaporfly (13).