Yes, if I can hang my hat on anything in running, it would be strength. So, regarding the 10k, yes, your analysis would seem theoretically correct...but there is also more time for me in a 10k to get nervous...and start thinking too much...would definitely need some “advisers” in mile 4, yelling out stuff to me. :)
I find it interesting that you feel anxiety during races. I'm a wreck pre-race, but am usually absolutely fine once the gun goes off, and my sense is most people are that way.
DB: Nice to see you back!
PutoMiudo: So great to see this! I'm truly happy for you!
TDR: You've been so diligent about building up. Have fun adding some quality seasoning to the mix.
SI: Ha! The only way I'm sending you home DEVASTATED is if you decide to stop for those drinks during the race. Otherwise, I'll be happy just to finish within the same hour as you (preferable the 2nd hour)!
AJ That Saturday Stepping Stones thing looks killer!
OR: Would the relationship be analogous to more traditional straight 20min tempos vs cruise intervals?
cocoon: Hang in there!
Allen: Glad to see those miles building.
More later... Here's my week
Male, 50 yo, 5’7”, 129 lbs
Goals: Executing a strong training plan
Upcoming Races: Gomach HM 3/3 (6 weeks out from...) Boston 2019
M: 23k E (AM 11.5, PM 11.5 Commute)
T: Rest
W: 12.6k E Hilly
T: 10k + 6(strides) E Flat
F: 11.5k E Flat
S: 8.7 E Flat
S: 26.7k: Week 18 Daniels 2Q, Q1:
1.6 HReasy + 10 HRmarathon + 1.6 HReasy + 10 HRmarathon + 3 HReasy (kms)
Total: 8:521 - 93k - 2568 ft
Highlights: Starting a new marathon cycle... THE marathon cycle. After all those years of trying to break 4 and then the years trying to BQ... the years unable to break 3:30. But there I was, lacing up and going out for my first “official” Boston training run (though I haven’t exactly been gathering moss the past few weeks :))
Lowlights: Had a few “bad” runs this week, with what I perceived to be a HR too high or a pace too slow. It was due to higher temps, but I let it bother me and spoiled what should have been a few hours enjoying the great outdoors.
2Q Progress So I’ll keep a bit of a weekly journal here about the 2Q workouts for guys like me who use the search function. Because I run in kilometers, I simply convert and round the miles listed on the 2Q 56-70 miles chart from the 3rd edition. I use the “Workout” function of my Garmin to input the distances and targets so I don’t need to stress about what I am supposed to be doing.
As planned, I did the Week 18 Q1 using a range of about 83-86% of my HRmax as my M effort. This is 10bpm lower than my actual average HR for all of my recent marathons, but I feel it’s best to train here for M runs. If I ran at the higher HR, I’m not sure where I’d need to go for my T effort! Once I found my rhythm, the effort felt right. I tried to stay at the low end of the range during the first 10k. I never checked my pace during the run. Post-workout analysis showed 4:34/km (171bpm) and 4:36/km (172bpm). This is my exact marathon PR pace from last December, though I ran most of that race near 180bpm.
So we agree you are roughly in 17 low 5k shape. We agree you should theoretically perform better as the race distance increases since you have more strength than speed
So last question. How would you (OR) improve your 10k ability through training? Right now, you “think” you are running up to 13 minutes uninterrupted at 10k pace at the end of your progression runs. How would you improve your 10k ability in training?
How can you take the “fear” out of racing a 10k?...or a 5k?...or any distance for that matter?...
Male, 25, 6’4”, 143.5
PRs: 4:54 (mile), 16:56, 1:18:00, 28:01 (8k), 2:47:14 (all 2018 but 8k 2015)
Goal: Recovery
Mo - OFF
Tu - OFF
Wd - OFF
Th - OFF
Fr - OFF
Sa - OFF
Su - OFF
Muscles ok since 100k but feet have been hurting, lots of time on feet this week didnt help. Will find out soon enough if its just inflammation or something else (stress fracture?)
- RunnerSam
outsiderunner wrote:
...you would be excellent, too, but your true greatness lies in your genuine and absolute beastliness as a runner. I have met VERY few people that compete the way you compete.
Thanks for the kind words, but clearly I have overstated my competitive abilities! This past year, especially, I've pretty much been a wimp. Never passed out, never collapsed, never even puked ... in fact dry heaves only once.
And, BTW, I would never want to coach, and would be lousy if I tried. Although I do enjoy self-coaching!
Anyway, I agree with your 5K estimate. And would think close to 35:30 for 10K. Certainly way below 36. As you formulate your Boston training, I hope you can include a few shorter races on fast, flat courses. Would likely be a huge confidence boost.
Yeah, I get it, but not in every race. I felt fine in my recent 5k. In most races, I can settle in fine, but shorter races can make me tense, as I tend to like to ease in some, and there is no time for that in the shorter distances. I think one advantage, though, of running a double-digit nearly every day is that it can mke the 3.1 seem like a joke. That is more or less how I felt in the recent 5k, and it felt great.
35/145/6'0"
Goals - Sub 17 5k... spring; start to train smarter and keep consistent mileage
Not a bad week for me, total mileage was there, but missed out on a long run due to terrible time management today (aka took a ride on the lazy train this morning and had to jam a run in before a kids bday party)
Anyway heres the week:
M - 7.1 - 7:19/mile
T - am 5.1 - 7:19/mile; pm 2 mile WU - 4 miles @ 556, 558, 551, 545 - 2 mile CD
W - 7 on grass 7:18/mile
TH - 6 - 7:25/ mile
F - 8.1 - 7:14/mile
Sa - 2 WU, 5x1000 (3:35) 5X200 (37) - 200m 90sec jog between reps - 2 mile CD
Su - 6 - 7:17/mile
56.5 miles this week. Not bad, need to keep the consistency up.
Although there seems to be a lot of drama on this thread, it is rather intriguing when the content is training related. I'm finding the conversations very insightful and interesting.
I think the conversation on Tinman training is particularly interesting, and find the science behind it very cool. I've been finding what I can online about it, especially the concept of CV pace. I'm interested in how that might apply to a shorter goal race than a marathon, or does it at all?
Saturday's track work was COLD. I was out at 6am in 18 degree weather pounding the 1000's out, but man did it feel great afterward.
Hope everyone has a good week!
Another exciting week of discussing OR training. Joy.
M 23
PRs: 4:21, 15:44
Goals:
Short term: 4:16 indoors, sub-15 outdoors
Long term: sub-4
Next race: Mile at BU January 15
Training at 6-7,000 feet
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: 8.2 miles easy (7:37 pace) + 5x15 second strides
Wednesday: 2.3 mile warm, 4 mile tempo at 5:43 pace, .4 mile jog, 4x200 in 32.5, 29, 29, 28.8, 2 mile cool down
Thursday: 8.6 miles easy (7:47 pace) in 67 minutes
Friday: 6.5 easy (7:50 pace) +4x15 second strides
Saturday: 3 mile warm up, 1 mile race in 4:33, 2.8 mile cool down.
Sunday: 12 miles in 1:30 (7:28 pace.) My second ever 90 minute run.
Total: 52.2 miles
Great week!
Solid opener at 6,300 feet on a flat track. We went out slow and I closed in 62 for 2nd place. NCAA would tell me this converts to 4:21.5, which would be .1 seconds faster than my PR. I don't know if I buy that, but it was a solid race nonetheless. We'll see what kind of shape I'm really in when I race on BU's track next week.
Stone/Allen - Good questions and thoughts, guys. No, very good. How would I improve my 10k ability? Well, I could say that I have not the faintest clue, but that would not quite be the whole story. I think the progression runs are a great staple, especially for me, and so I would keep a bunch of those in the rotation. Perhaps I have already answered your question (but you are not aware of it) by registering (on Friday) for our local Winter Series of races. Actually, the Christmas 5k is now the first in the series (new for this year), and so I have raced one already. There are seven races left. With the exception of one race, they are all hilly courses. I have run all of them in prior years...again, with the exception of one, my boss’s race, which he says is now a flat course (was hilly in the past). Though, that one is in the depths of January (late Jan.) and will probably be bone-chilling. Winter can be tough, esp. for speedier work.
I was planning on adding hill surges (Allen’s idea). I am sure that you have some more comprehesive ideas in mind, though. Allen... I totally agree about shorter races being a huge confidence boost, esp. those on fast courses.
Regarding taking the fear out of racing...I guess I need to feel more confident that I can “beat those bums around me.” I say that not as an insult to others, but in the sense that a bit of cockiness can go a long way. To me, that type of confidence is attained through becoming a beast. Fast, tough running, and in all conditions. I also need to pray more, and relax. Perhaps you have some other ideas? Thanks for the discussion. It is appreciated.
Any thought on why Tinman has such short rests between strides? I see a lot of 8 x 20 fast/20 easy or 12 x 10 fast/10 easy mentioned on his message boards, but this flies in the face of a lot of folks taking full rest of a few minutes between strides.
Why would you have such short rest? I have feeling part of it is to prevent people from running them too fast.
Hey guys, just a quick flyby post my race result. Dallas Half Marathon today in 1:25:23. That’s a few minutes faster than expected so I think I have sub 3 in my sights for Houston Marathon next month.
It was faster because I was, for the first time in my life, racing. The last 4-5 Miles was a battle with about 4 guys. I was surging and covering other guys’ attempts at passing me. I beat them all including a guy I outkicked in the final 100. Felt great and I’ll post a detailed report tomorrow.
Male, 27, 16x lbs, father to two, grad student
Goals:
sub 40 10k
sub 4:55/5:15 1500/mile
Monday: 6 miles @ 9:52 average on the treadmill. Followed it up with 6 x 15 sec on the 1/9 indoor track at the gym.
Tuesday: Off. Legs still felt battered from the 10k. Figured a rest day and extra calories would help matters.
Wednesday: 3 x 1 @ 7:30 w/ 1 minute rest. I meant to do McMillan’s 5k race week workout of 6 x 200m repeats w/ 400 jog rest. But the day got away from me and the track closed, so I opted for the cruise intervals instead. I did the same workout last week, but this week my HR average was 17 bpm lower, it maxed out at 175 (87.5%), and the effort was much lower. Definitely gained back a lot of lost fitness in about a week. With warm up and cool down, 7 for the day.
Thursday: 7 miles @ 9:41 average. I felt good and ended up doing the middle four miles slightly quicker at 9:30 and then 9:20. My natural tendency is to go quicker and I embraced that a little bit here.
Friday: 6 miles @ 10 on the treadmill. It was cold (for me at least at 30) so I stayed inside. Plus I didn’t get to run until later in the day so I didn’t want to run outside in the dark.
Saturday: Goal mile – 6:03 flat (PR). Overall, I am very happy with how it turned out. I felt like I was in 6 flat or slightly better shape so I went out at 6 pace and just slightly fell off. My splits were 88.6, 92, 92.6, and 89.8 for 409, 809, 1209, and 1609. I went out a touch fast and tried to settle into pace but went slightly too slow. Unfortunately, like everyone knows, the third lap makes or breaks a mile and this third lap got the better of me. I gave it everything I had left at the end but couldn’t gain back the lost time. So that was a bit frustrating, but overall I was more than happy and it served to confirm that I was in about 43 shape for 10k. The mile converts to 42:49 for Daniels’, but I’m better at the mile and below than the 5k and up right now.
One weird thing is that my HR averaged 162 and maxed at 175 even though I was breathing damn hard at the end and was sweating a ton. Anyone know why that would be the case? With warm up and cool down, I hit 5 for the day.
Sunday: 9 miles @ 9.5 + strength
Total: 40
Another solid week of 40 miles. Planning to do 45 next week and the week after before taking a down week of 30 before the beginning of phase 2. I never took down scheduled down weeks this year and it probably didn’t help. My heart rate has been much lower than usual this week due to getting more rest and probably because of the two weeks off. The only thing that I’m really disappointed about, since I let go of the goal times for this year, is that I’m still dead last on the performance list. However, I intend to work my way up next year. Also, I registered for a half on 1/12. My old PR of 2 flat is super soft and I’d like to bring it in line with my other ones from this year, meager as they may be.
Lastly, I’ve closed a lot of the gap to my lifetime PRs. The fastest times I could find for myself from high school were 62.95, 2:23.5, 5:29.2, and 18:30 for 400, 800, 1600, and 5k. I’m currently at 6:03, 21:05, and 46:10 for mile, 5k, and 10k. Not bad for taking a ten year hiatus and carrying an extra ~30 pounds. Can’t wait to not have to asterisk all my PRs in my head
Kid B - Great result! Congrats on your fantastic race. The sub-3 crew mojo continues. You have a real shot at Houston.
OR - I have enjoyed our discussion thus far. However, I don’t want to monopolize the thread.
I’ll add my final analysis recommendations later in the week.
Stone - Sure, no problem. Just thought I would add...of the seven races, six are 5ks, and one is a 5-miler. Looking forward to your recommendations. The post by that guy who said that my avg. daily pace is faster than everyone he tracks on Strava, including muliple OTQ guys, really got my attention.
Rabbit hole wrote:
Another exciting week of discussing OR training. Joy.
Rabbit hole is kind. I'll play the week for you.
1. OR solicits opinions from everyone about his training
2. Thread provides feedback.
3. OR tries to seek validation by saying how his training is like the feedback.
4. Some politely disagree, others no so politely; OR defends his training by "who else can PR a 5k, 3 weeks after his marathon?"
5. Too hot comes to his rescue
6. OR gets his validation
7. OR posts daily "flyers" to the decimal point, not to forgetting to remind everyone that it's hilly. "Last .12784 in 1:23.12457"
Next week:
1. OR solicits opinions from everyone about his training...
What's the definition of insanity again?
Black hole wrote:
Rabbit hole wrote:
Another exciting week of discussing OR training. Joy.
Rabbit hole is kind. I'll play the week for you.
1. OR solicits opinions from everyone about his training
2. Thread provides feedback.
3. OR tries to seek validation by saying how his training is like the feedback.
4. Some politely disagree, others no so politely; OR defends his training by "who else can PR a 5k, 3 weeks after his marathon?"
5. Too hot comes to his rescue
6. OR gets his validation
7. OR posts daily "flyers" to the decimal point, not to forgetting to remind everyone that it's hilly. "Last .12784 in 1:23.12457"
Next week:
1. OR solicits opinions from everyone about his training...
What's the definition of insanity again?
outsiderunner wrote:
Well, I could say that I have not the faintest clue, but that would not quite be the whole story.
Funny. Pretty good. 10/10. Anyway...
You’ve REALLY got me thinking.
...So what YOU think I’m capable of running?
Not much going on for me this week. Might be the laziest week ever for me lol. I have been using my compression boots daily though. It took until Thursday for my quad soreness to go away. Hopefully I can make it one more week of no running.
Coach is thinking either Boston or Grandmas for me. Not sure which I prefer. With me running poorly on the downhill type course CIM has it almost makes me scared to run Boston. Grandmas is a good option but the weather is so unpredictable. I’ll keep everyone updated on this.