Loudoun Valley Boys Score 16 Today at State Meet. Is it Tinman Training?

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

Should all high school coaches use CV workouts? Is it time to drink the kool-aid?

https://twitter.com/milestatdotcom

Oh My God!!!

This isn't rocket science. Tinman, Strawman, Iceman, etc................. This is simply having a talented kid run 70 miles a week!!!! Yeah, you can break it up into two daily workouts to minimize the wear and tear but you're still having a 17-18 year old run 70 miles a week with little recovery. Drew was simply stronger than any other kid and exceptionally talented. The workouts are basic high end aerobic work with some quicker turnover workouts sprinkled in. If you stay healthy you're going to run well.

2 x weekly double days is not a big deal, it allows you to sneak in some extra mileage (5-10 miles a week). It's important to understand that high school kids are still growing and to over tax their bodies is not a good thing long term especially if they plan to compete in college or longer. It goes back to GREAT coaching and being sure to develop the athlete according to what their bodies are prepared to withstand. I'm a Drew Hunter fan and so far he's run some "Good" times as a Pro but the jury is still out as to the long term effects of his high mileage training in high school and how it will effect his long term growth as a professional runner.

So please tell me why is it bad for a HS coach to use Daniels?? What is wrong with during the main training midseason phase having a typical week be... a Daniels interval workout, getting 3 ish miles of interval work with a close to 1-1 recovery ( say 5 x 1000 w/ 3-3:30 recovery) a 20 min tempo/threshold run and a long run? Not trying to be a wise ass.. just wondering

The one thing all great HS programs have in common is large participation. This is because talent matters. Great coaches will not make national caliber race horses out of donkeys. Coaching matters but nothing compared to getting the right kids in to the program. If you have a large team you will find 5 guys that can run well enough to be competitive at the state level.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! Mileage matters! If you can stay healthy & run higher mileage then the speed/pace will follow.

60 mins a day and a 90 minute run per is enough for average HS runners to become the best they can be.

It is enough to identify the 'special' runners who may benefit from a more personalized training plan that might include/ justify higher mileage or 2xday training

Teenage kids that might make their academic choice colleges JVXC team really do not need to squeeze out that last 7 or 8 seconds to get themselves to that fabled "I'm a 4:30 Lets Run Mile" status.

I can't get past the 4 very talented transfers.

You take a successful program (hat's off to the coach, kids, etc.) and add that kind of talent and they score 16 points in the state meet. No kidding. OK - the coach did not f*** it up but inject that kind of talent into any program and they damn well better be very, very good.

When its nature (e.g. raw talent- like a 9:37 sophomore must have) versus nurture (coaching, Daniels or otherwise) - nature wins.

How or why "cruise intervals" matter in the case is seems a trivial at best

So they run decent mileage and do tempo intervals instead of gut busting intervals.

Isn’t this what most well coached programs do?

Help Me Understand wrote:

I can't get past the 4 very talented transfers.

You take a successful program (hat's off to the coach, kids, etc.) and add that kind of talent and they score 16 points in the state meet. No kidding. OK - the coach did not f*** it up but inject that kind of talent into any program and they damn well better be very, very good.

When its nature (e.g. raw talent- like a 9:37 sophomore must have) versus nurture (coaching, Daniels or otherwise) - nature wins.

How or why "cruise intervals" matter in the case is seems a trivial at best

EoT.

Look at Hunters training log. Over the summer he was running 50-70 mpw but then during the fall racing season he’s actually increasing to 70-80 mpw.

That I believe is the difference than most programs whom will back off mileage in September/October once racing starts.

The reason this can work is because the “workouts” are not gut busters but threshold work.

Gvbgvh wrote:

Look at Hunters training log. Over the summer he was running 50-70 mpw but then during the fall racing season he’s actually increasing to 70-80 mpw.

That I believe is the difference than most programs whom will back off mileage in September/October once racing starts.

The reason this can work is because the “workouts” are not gut busters but threshold work.

My coach would have me run decent mileage in the summer 50-60 mpw but by October I was running 30-40mpw and constantly running hard workouts. I think this is why I felt less strong by November.

Really I should of been bumping the mileage up to 60-70mpw and trying sticking to thresholds workouts.

Oh brother are u kidfing me? wrote:

This is not new training. It is talent.

Coaches are only as good as the talent they coach. Socioeconomicly sound, school culture, parent buy-in, sound coaching. There’s nothing magical about the training. Nothing magical about the coaching.

STFU.

These transfers are not coming to LV because the academics or decades of running dominance at LV.

LV dominance is brand new.

They are coming because of the Hunter's.

That they were already good reflects on the draw the Hunters have with good runners.

LV makes them great runners.

If it were just transfers, this would happen everywhere. It doesn't. You're a doooshh.

Deadstream wrote:

They did almost as well as the FM boys did yesterday.

Yes. Almost.

To the point, FM dominance must have something to do with good coaching, right?

So, LV, in a fraction of the time, is on par with FM and some folks here think it has nothing to do with the coaching.?? ...That the transfers are coming not because the coaching, but some perceived LV dominance, but not because LV coaching??

Another item: To those runners from the 90's claiming Tinman is a fraud, that you were doing these as 10k pace workouts WAY before Tinman.....You weren't.

How come the HS mile times from the 90s suck so bad?

SoCoachingMightMatter?? wrote:

Deadstream wrote:

They did almost as well as the FM boys did yesterday.

Yes. Almost.

To the point, FM dominance must have something to do with good coaching, right?

So, LV, in a fraction of the time, is on par with FM and some folks here think it has nothing to do with the coaching.?? ...That the transfers are coming not because the coaching, but some perceived LV dominance, but not because LV coaching??

Another item: To those runners from the 90's claiming Tinman is a fraud, that you were doing these as 10k pace workouts WAY before Tinman.....You weren't.

How come the HS mile times from the 90s suck so bad?

Because in the 90s 50 miles a week was high mileage. Most programs were running 20-40

Y'all haven't mentioned the bigger achievement. Valley girls in 4a won states, narrowly beating Blacksburg. Blacksburg has won girls states for I think 8 years. Dunno if the girls won post merge states overall.

As far as weight lifting goes, it's debateable whether it make any difference.

There's a good amount of scientific literature that refutes this. Most distance coaches are (IMO) too slow to change their approaches and lack the knowledge to properly prescribe resistance training but the efficacy is clear and proven.

OhBro,YoMFKiddingRt? wrote:

Oh brother are u kidfing me? wrote:

This is not new training. It is talent.

Coaches are only as good as the talent they coach. Socioeconomicly sound, school culture, parent buy-in, sound coaching. There’s nothing magical about the training. Nothing magical about the coaching.

STFU.

These transfers are not coming to LV because the academics or decades of running dominance at LV.

LV dominance is brand new.

They are coming because of the Hunter's.

That they were already good reflects on the draw the Hunters have with good runners.

LV makes them great runners.

If it were just transfers, this would happen everywhere. It doesn't. You're a doooshh.

You need to educate yourself little boy. They transfer in studs + highly recruit. They don't home grow them like public schools have to. You must have a vested interest. That's cool but now go back to playing jumprope.

You know LV is a public school, right?

Daniels is a good starting point but is very limiting. His training model operates off of a couple training zones that if you aren’t doing workouts in then you are in a “Grey area” of training. There are hardly such things as energy systems and most of what we do is on a continuum. In fact, CV operates under that assumption by working at an effort level that has far reaching effects on your fitness both at slower and faster race speeds.

Daniels is decent for 5000m training but terrible for the miler and especially bad for collegiate XC/track. V02 max work is largely BS, highly overrated, and too stressful on the body. Most of what he does is not very specific racing. You see this in his recoveries. What about 3:00 @ 5k pace with 1:1 recovery is specific at all?? Who gets that much rest in a race? Needs to be shorter recovery and active imo. His periodization model is too linear as well. Once a stimulus is built up, a poor job is done at maintaining it. A lot of drop off happens at the end of the season. Many programs who use him are a little too inconsistent at the end of the year.

Just my opinion. I know a couple dudes in my region/conference who use him still. The ones who don’t use it have done much better. Two of them (including myself) were some of the first teams out of NCAAs and one of them qualified.

Ed u cate thyself dum bas wrote:

You need to educate yourself little boy. They transfer in studs + highly recruit. They don't home grow them like public schools have to. You must have a vested interest. That's cool but now go back to playing jumprope.

LV = public school, as was said. What an arrogant DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH you are!!!!! Stupid little boy. Moran-ic little boy. Imbecile of a little boy. Et cetera x 1000.