Knowledgeable posters! does improving your LT ever diminish?

You could always run more....

Ron Moore wrote:

You could always run more....

thanks ron moron

I think that with your energy systems and running specific mechanics (aerobic & anaerobic thresholds, cardio efficiency,VO2 max, running economy, efficiency, LThresh, basic speed, stength, etc.) there is ultimately a limit, BUT, I can assure you that even the elite runners don't maximize potential in ALL areas. When a runner starts to plateau in an area maybe it's time to experiment with additional focus in "weakness" areas.

I am sure that someone else can add some additional information.

hill city wrote:

I think that with your energy systems and running specific mechanics (aerobic & anaerobic thresholds, cardio efficiency,VO2 max, running economy, efficiency, LThresh, basic speed, stength, etc.) there is ultimately a limit, BUT, I can assure you that even the elite runners don't maximize potential in ALL areas. When a runner starts to plateau in an area maybe it's time to experiment with additional focus in "weakness" areas.

I am sure that someone else can add some additional information.

simple example of that would be, a 10k runner, stuck at say 28:00, he would then move down to 5k or even lower, work on his 'speed' and if everything else is the same as before in his training, he should see some improvement.

so many variables that make it obvious, we all have places to improve on!

Theoretically, there is a limit to LT and Vo2max but Running Economy is less limited. This is why you can easily find a number of runners with very similar LT and Vo2max yet vastly different times. Using myself as an example: 79.4 Vo2max, 85% LT (assuming near equal relationship between VT and LT), yet I suck. Running economy. I'm 5'6', 140lbs, my big ass takes short strides. Now, if you could theoretically take a runner with my "attributes", drop his weight by 10-20lbs WITHOUT losing muscle power (KEY point, look at what Lance Armstrong did, dropped weight due to cancer yet maintained muscle power) you'd have one fast runner. It all goes back to stride rate and stride frequency. Assuming the stride rate remains the same a drop in excess weight w/o losing muscle power and thus a rise in economy should increase the relative stride length. You can have a Vo2max of 90 and an LT of 90% but if you're a large wad of muscle with a short stride you're not going anywhere fast.

Alan

cool, but you say v02max is limited to a certain extent but you say running economy is not, and then you bring an example of running economy with your weight, but isnt v02max effected with once weight also?

so with that, running economy= v02max?

can someone define what running economy really means?

First keep in mind, that the basic gains that are made regarding development of inner fiber was product transport do not chance one they established. But the Mechanical and enzymatic changes that take place can be lost once you stop providing he needed stress to force or maintain adoption. The whole reason for using a system that builds you up and in a careful manor. Is that these other systems come and go, now remember that you regardless of time of year. You should be doing at least 1LT workout of 45 minutes, books say 20 minutes is fine. But 45 for most people will cover everything up though the 10k. Like anything don’t over do this. You should in your base phase be doing about 1.75 hr per week to LT training even while in base. 2x 45 is fine. You also need to do hill springing with all out sprints once you have jogged down to the bottom of the hill 5-7 is fine. This will make your stride much soother and add more bounce to your legs. Keep in mind that just do to the fact that someone would seem to have leveled off in gains might no be what has really happed but they have not fully adapted to the type and style of training. Remember Webb had a few ruff years, but stuck it out and is doing just fine.

Last think to keep in mind LT, and Vo2Max are part of the puzzle but just that and no one knows all there is to know about what determons the performance of the human body. Al Sal had poor form, lifted a bit much and over trained for most of his races. And regardless of what he might say or rember was likely running a good deal more then 100 miles a week. Even on dope, which I bet he was he still was one hell of a runner... I have a theory that I will explain later on this board that is not in line with the normal ideas regarding what is really important regarding performance. I will publish them in a few days. That are based on some early observations of Einstein regarding chemicals, the great economist Smith.

good post! i'm interested in what you have to say with your theory. post it for us when you finish!

solrichards,

WHen you are talking about LT workouts- do you say that you prefer longer LT efforts than the shorter ones that many people suggest (the 20 minutes variety)- do you believe that say a 45 minute LT run would be more beneficial than a typical 20 tempo run? I have always thought that alternating the longer LT runs and shorter LT runs every other week is a good idea when the phase you are in calls for LT work. I just think both long (45 minute variety) and shorter (20 min) LT runs are important. The shorter varity help with LT AND economy. The longer LT runs greatly improve pure aerobic power as well as LT, etc. I just think that there is a place for both long and short LT runs. Interesting you brought that up though, since I was thinking about it today.

hill city wrote:

solrichards,

WHen you are talking about LT workouts- do you say that you prefer longer LT efforts than the shorter ones that many people suggest (the 20 minutes variety)- do you believe that say a 45 minute LT run would be more beneficial than a typical 20 tempo run? I have always thought that alternating the longer LT runs and shorter LT runs every other week is a good idea when the phase you are in calls for LT work. I just think both long (45 minute variety) and shorter (20 min) LT runs are important. The shorter varity help with LT AND economy. The longer LT runs greatly improve pure aerobic power as well as LT, etc. I just think that there is a place for both long and short LT runs. Interesting you brought that up though, since I was thinking about it today.

common sense, 20 minutes of running is not going to get you to better fitness than running 45 minutes. 20minutes is just too short, thats probably 5k, 6k, even 4k pace for some. i believe its a pace you can maintain at a little slower than your 10k pace. thats where i've gotten in better shape.

Mr. Homeless,

Actually I have to disagree. If we are talking about LT, like you mentioned above, then a quick 20 minute threshold would improve your LT as much as a slower 45 minute threshold. And, like I said above, I think they both have their place in a training schedule.