East Africans are not genetically superior

as for the fastest non African 10000m time: Arturo Barrios (MEX) 27:07

trackhead wrote:

as for the fastest non African 10000m time: Arturo Barrios (MEX) 27:07

That right there says it all.

hounddogharrier wrote:

It is not politically correct to say, but it is genetics. The clearest example is sprinting. Compared to distance running, it doesn't take a whole lot of training to excel and every country has sports that require sprinting and maximize the ability of outstanding sprinters. Yet look at the facts: every 100 meter time under 10 seconds- and there have been hundreds of them - has been run by an athlete of Western African descent. Not one athlete ever of European, Asian, East African or Indian descent has ever done it, but it is common among athletes of West African descent. There can't be any reason but genetics and the same reasoning applies to distance running and East Africans.

Are Australian Aborignals of West African decent?

Patrick Johnson ran 9.93 in 2003.

And some have gotten close:

10.00 2.0 Marian Woronin POL 13 08 1956 1 Warszawa 09 06 1984

10.00 1.9 Koji Ito JPN 29 01 1970 1sf2 Bangkok 13 12 1998

10.01 A 0.9 Pietro Mennea ITA 28 06 1952 1 Ciudad de México 04 09 1979

You can't seriously contend that W. Africans don't have a higher proportion of trainable sprinters. How could culture be involved - these W. African sprinters are from every corner of the globe. One or two non-Africans proves nothing. We aren't talking about individuals, we are talking about groups. There is no common "cultural" thread among W. African-origin sprinters, nor a common economic one.

Hopefully, trackhead, you are not really trying to make a case out of 3 people who are close vs. many people who have shattered 10.

You have the right idea with footwear, but no one can make a convincing argument against African supremacy in running based on genetic reasons, because there is no convincing argument.

all we have to do is build a few mcdonalds in each of the eastern african countries. im sure that would slow them dramatically.

Well, most of the worlds money is controlled by white males. Your argument could be used to say that white males a genetically superior.

"Your argument could be used to say that white males a genetically superior."

No, his logic could not. What the hell does "superior" mean when we are talking about a contrived sport? There is nothing "superior" about being able to run outside of being able to run. Second, the causes of outcomes in a physical endeavor might be, surprise, largely physical, while "having alot of money" can be controlled by an abundane of factors.

Black people are better at withstanding the damaging rays of the sun and resisting malaria than white people. Does this fact require logic that could be used in the manner you describe?

Okay one in what 6 billion

Runrayb,

This is hilarious.

I am Kenyan and I do not know the answer. you said it better than anyone that I know.

It is perhaps the 8th wonder of the world. It is one of those things that no one can explain.

I'm not denying talent, just pointing out that there are those that are close

Read this article. Kenyan dominance in distance running. Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2003 Sep;136(1):161-70. Review.

According to Larsen, critical physiological factors for performance in running are maximal oxygen consumption, fractional VO2 max, and running economy. When comparing Kenyan and Caucasian elite runners, results revealed that Kenyan runners are to be able to run at a higher percentage of their VO2 max. A lower energy cost of running has been demonstrated in Kenyan elite runners. But in untrained adolescent Kenyan boys compared to their Caucasian counterparts, there was no difference. I think it’s probably a combination of both, genetics and their training. This is a very good article if you want the full text article email me and I’ll send it to you.

“Results on adolescent Kenyan and Caucasian boys show that these boys VO2max are running at a similar percentage of during competition. Kenyan elite runners, however, appear to be able to VO2max run at a high % of which must then have been achieved by training. A lower energy cost of running has been VO2max demonstrated in Kenyan elite runners and in untrained adolescent Kenyan boys compared to their Caucasian counterparts.”

“A difference exists in BMI and body shape, and the Kenyans long, slender legs could be advantageous when running as the energy cost when running is a function of leg mass.”

“Most of the Kenyans who are such good performers come from a group of eight small tribes

called Kalenjin, which number only approximately three and a half million people. Among the Kalenjin tribes, the Nandis have performed the best and they constitute only approximately 2% of the

Kenyan population. “

“the average proportion of European achievements in the six all time top 20 lists in the distances

from 800 m to marathon including steeplechase was 48.3% while the percentage of African results

was 26.6% of which the Kenyans produced 13.3%. Moreover, the majority of world record holders

were Europeans, and European gold medal winners at the Olympic Games and world championships

were not a rarity. Today, the proportion of European achievements is reduced to 11.7%, whereas

the percentage of Africans in the top has increased to 85.0%, of which 55.8% are Kenyans (IAAF,

All Time Outdoor Lists, June 2003, Fig. 1). The markedly reduced occurrence of Europeans in the

list is not due to them running slower now than earlier. It is simply related to the fact that runners

from East-Africa in particular now run so much faster (IAAF, 2002; Matthews, 1987). Even more

profound is the Kenyan dominance at the world cross-country championships, where Kenyan senior

men have won the team title on the long distance every year for the past 18 years. The performances of Kenyan men in middle- and long distance events at the Olympic Games and world championships on track underscore the Kenyan superiority.”

“In addition to having the proper genes to VO2max shape their bodies and thereby contributing to a good running economy, the Kenyan elite runners have trained effectively and used their potential to be in the upper range both in regard to and to a high utilization of this capacity VO2max during endurance running.”

Please send the full article to me Rivas.

Thank you

NativeSon, your post says it all.

The facts speak for themselves, whatever the reason, it just is so. As an inferior caucasian distance runner, I take my hat off.

Mizuki Noguchi, Naoko Takahashi, Hicham El-Guerrouj are not East Africans. All have Olympic Golds. Hicham El-Guerrouj is from Morrocco, the country that civilized Spain/Portugal long ago and brought them out of the caves. This genetic B.S. is just an excuse for losers. Sour grapes.

Thank you, MianiGiuliano.

That is my point exactly. My point is that even if the Kenyans are genetically superior, then non-Africans have still run really fast times. You can not say that you are not fast because you are not African when there are still 100,000 white people faster than you. Too often we use our race as an excuse.

"Mizuki Noguchi, Naoko Takahashi, Hicham El-Guerrouj are not East Africans. All have Olympic Golds. Hicham El-Guerrouj is from Morrocco, the country that civilized Spain/Portugal long ago and brought them out of the caves. This genetic B.S. is just an excuse for losers. Sour grapes."

Did you read the thread at all? Noting a few outliers doesn't disprove the facts. Do non-African countries fail to effectively develop their talent pool for cultural reasons? Probably so. Do they have the same talent pool? Probably not. There are women that can bench 300 pounds and alot of men can't, so don't give me that genetic crap that women are weaker than men.

And, BTW, read a bit about North African Arabs and the trans-Saharan E. African slave trade and you might learn a bit more about El-G's possible ancestry.

1500m Runner wrote:

Thank you, MianiGiuliano.

That is my point exactly. My point is that even if the Kenyans are genetically superior, then non-Africans have still run really fast times. You can not say that you are not fast because you are not African when there are still 100,000 white people faster than you. Too often we use our race as an excuse.

Nobody is arguing that. You are arguing against a straw man rather than the actual position taken. What we are saying is that genetically, ON AVERAGE, kenyans and ethiopians are better at distance running than everyone else in the world. This should not be in serious dispute.

Are there outliers in every population? Yes. Are we all still responsible for reaching the limit of our genetic potential? Yes. The genetic capabilities of african runners will not change my PRs. Only I can do that. Nobody is arguing otherwise.

So what makes east africans better?

Is it lifestyle? Of course not -- there are dozens of third world countries where people have impoverished lifestyles that make them skinny that suck at distance running.

Is it nutrition? I don't think a lot of these guys are getting good nutrition when they're growing up. They care more about survival than carbs, fat, and vitamins. If anything, nutrition cuts against them. Yeah, we have mcdonalds in this country, but good runners are health and diet-conscious in addition to training hard.

Is it desire? I seriously doubt that they want athletic success any more than athletes from 50 other dirt-poor nations. And you underestimate athletes from rich countries: do you think they're not willing to train with everything they've got in order to be world-class? At the Olympic level, everyone's got desire and dedication.

Genetics plays a role in african success. It's not everything: you've got to have dedication and desire. But it's extremely important.

Almost every track athlete at the Olympics is a genetic freak compared to the average person - each one is a genetic outlier. It's just the East African outliers are more in number and more in quality than anywhere else and their outliers are a little better than the outliers from just about everywhere else. The East Africans work a lot harder than the average good runner but I don't think they work that much harder than the truly elite of the rest of the world. Of course on an individual basis you can be the best and be from anywhere.