high mileage, minimal improvement, need advice

How fast are your easy runs? How many workouts are you doing a week? Are you doing just running or any lifting/cross training? Your 1:24 is better than your marathon so it might indicate that you need to work on your aerobic side more but more info might help. Are you keeping it at 90mpw all the time or are you fluctuating at all? Are you taking any down weeks to recover and absorb your training?

more long runs with MP included wrote:

M'aiq the Liar wrote:

1:24 off of sustained 90mpw?? Something is not quite right with your training. You should be faster than this. What is your typical training week like? As for weight, you are right where you want to be (perhaps a tad under weight).

you don't know her talent level, so I don't agree that we know she "should be" faster.

The person who said to do more long runs and do them with MP finishes- I agree 100%. Three long runs is not enough, regardless of 90mpw.

Congratulations to OP for overcoming challenges and continuing to run, and to also run faster than a very high % of the running population.

Are you serious? Two long runs a week is plenty for the marathon. This template works for most people starting out.

Monday: Easy double

Tue: Workout

Wed: Semi long (say < 12mi)

Thursday: recovery, double

Friday: Workout

Saturday: recovery

Sunday: Specific long run (say > 15mi).

Also the "is 5"4 and 115 laughable" comment is a bit questionable. You cannot get a way with not eating enough and trying to excel in the marathon...it just won't happen. Some women can get a way with it at the shorter distances but your body won't cooperate without enough intake at the marathon (both in training and racing)...it can't it needs all the stored glycogen it can muster...don't even weigh yourself make sure that you eat and that you have a healthy body image and relationship with food. This is coming from a mom of two...I don't care what I look like I want to be strong and durable. Krista duchene of Canada is a great role model I think in distance running for women.

OP you seem to be doing fine. Don't get all obsessed with OTQ, focus on health and enjoyment with enough racing to keep focused. You might try dropping down to 50 miles or so and see if you don't feel faster and fresher. Also keep a variety of workouts, with at least 50% or more on soft surfaces.

Make sure you are getting plenty of quality protein. omega3 and haeme iron from animal, fish and egg sources. Most women, much less women who run, are deficient because of a conditioned aversion to meat.

In any case you should view your progression for years. You are still young and should improve for around a decade, more if you get it right.

After your mind and body went through all that you made some pretty impressive progress. Sometimes it takes more time to have bigger breakthroughs. It seems like you are still improving.

Why couldn't she still improve a lot (get OTQ B standard at some point) ? She sounds open minded to feedback and running has been a help to her in her life. Why not?

Maybe she's better at longer distances and hasn't reached her peak there? Only been at higher mileage for a year or two.. everyone's different. The women's OTQ is 2:45 also.... I think crazier improvements have been made lol.

Superior, you workouts and responsives always seem to be spot on. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

High mileage should not be the goal. What you want is relaxed running. Relaxed running will produce speed.

You have ran a 3:05 marathon. That is very good! To get better you might want to run more often but do not

time your runs. Also add speed development for one day per week. Make sure the day before and afterwards are

easy. Frequency and mentally being aware of what you are doing is most important.

Here is a sample plan:

Warmups: 1 mile jog; dynamic running drills, 4 x 60m strides

Sunday: AM 4 miles

PM 10 miles plus 4 x 60m strides; stretching

Monday PM 8 miles Fartlek (1 mile jog; then alternate 200/400/600 with shorter recoveries.

run these at mile pace/5K pace/10K pace or slightly faster if you feel good; 1 mile jog)

Tuesday AM 4 miles

PM 10 miles 4 x 60m strides; stretching

Wednesday AM 4 miles

*Thursday PM Warmup well; 6 x 80 meters @ 75/80/85/90/95/95% with 3 minute Walk between each

1 mile jog; stretching

Friday AM 4 x 1000 at 10K pace with 400 jogs (We just want something faster than the Marathon.)

Saturday AM 4 miles

PM 10 miles 4 x 60m strides; stretching

Every other week make one of the 10 milers into a 20 mile run.

The main thing is consistency but you may of course make a day easier.

Better to do too little than too much.

*Consult a sprinting coach on your speed development day. He should stress classic form, acceleration,

and relaxation. Do this every week of the year. You may substitute Flying 30s; 10 x 50s; short hills of 200-300 meters;

downhills; skipping rope for speed; etc.

Enjoy your running. If you have been running for many years it is probably not necessary to run 70-100 miles

per week. I believe in the 20 miler mostly for confidence. But I could see trying to give that up as well.

More speed and frequency. Get rid of the watch.

Runnergirl93 wrote:

Is 5'4 and 115 laughable for a marathon woman? Thanks.

Sam

I'm confused. Is that supposed to be big?

Xoman wrote:

OTQ is totally out of question. You don't have the talent for it!

That being said, you are not slow at all. 1:24 is a very good time for a girl. Many struggle to break 1:30 and are training hard too.

Unfortunately, none of your times (from mile to HM/marathon) signals a high VO2MAX - which ultimately determines the maximum you can reach. You can improve your marathon time to the equivalent of your other race times, which would be around 2:55 with proper training, as one previous poster recommended (more focus on long runs / 'big workouts'). Then you can shave off 5-10 more minutes.

But the OTQ time is 2:37, that's roughly your 5k PR time for 26 miles, I just don't see this happening anymore no matter what you do, considering you had a decade of good, solid endurance training and even a couple of years with 90 mpw.

Well I guess you can disregard everything this guy says. Doesn't even know the OTQ standard.

OP, honestly you need to learn a little about marathon training. As someone else said, 3 long runs in the entire build is not enough, and likely a main contributor to your bonk. If the OTQ is really your dream goal, you need to train properly. The LRC message boards aren't going to get you there. Either find a coach or start reading. If you're going to do this on your own, start with these 3 books:

- Advanced Marathoning

- Hanson's Marathon Method

- Daniels' Running Formula (2nd edition, preferably)

In addition, find some women who have recently run 2:4x and read their blogs. Learn what they do and why it works. And finally, be smart about your training. Marathon training isn't rocket science.

R U Serius? wrote:

more long runs with MP included wrote:

you don't know her talent level, so I don't agree that we know she "should be" faster.

The person who said to do more long runs and do them with MP finishes- I agree 100%. Three long runs is not enough, regardless of 90mpw.

Congratulations to OP for overcoming challenges and continuing to run, and to also run faster than a very high % of the running population.

Are you serious? Two long runs a week is plenty for the marathon. This template works for most people starting out.

Monday: Easy double

Tue: Workout

Wed: Semi long (say < 12mi)

Thursday: recovery, double

Friday: Workout

Saturday: recovery

Sunday: Specific long run (say > 15mi).

She said she did 3 long runs in her entire marathon buildup! Not 3 per week. So I said to do more. That’s all.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. Do you know where I could find these blogs/training of women who have run 2:4X in the marathon?

I will definitely check out the other resources mentioned.

---For others who have asked questions:

1: easy run pace varies depending on how I feel anywhere from 7:30-9:30

2: The long runs (18, 20, 22) last time were mostly easy pace. In one of those I held marathon pace for the last 5 miles..that's it

3. It's been a very hectic last couple years personally, and now I've settled some things (e.g. just working a full time job and not doing other jobs/done with grad school etc.)... I think the extra rest will help.. most importantly help me mentally... though I had been doing much better I was still having some mental breakdowns and those are very tiring.. doing better now as I get to know what I need to be healthy

4. Not sure what to do with marathon nutrition; couldn't really tell if what I was taking helped (took 3 Gus at 7,14,21)-- I was burping quite a bit at miles 18 and beyond.... also got a hamstring/butt cramp (areas had been bothering me a bit and have since not bothered me since I took a break after the race)

5. I'll usually have 3 workouts a week, one a tempo run 6-10 miles, one intervals (anywhere from 800s to 2 miles.. but if it were 2 miles I would only do 3-4 sets... I did a 400 workout once in the past half year... --- the last workout of the week is a combo of both where I'll do 3-4 tempo miles and a workout after)

Look up results of recent marathons and search Strava for women who have run in that range. Obviously not everyone is on Strava so it'll take a little work to find those who are.

e.g.

Houston

http://www.chevronhoustonmarathon.com/participants/results/

CIM

https://runsra.org/california-international-marathon/results-photos/

Runnergirl93 wrote:

I have since run a 1:24 half off of a year of 90 miles (fall 2017). My first marathon was a 3:05 ( beginning of Oct '18).

Sam

More miles is almost never the answer. With a 1:24 you should be able to get under 3 hours with 60 miles per week or something like that. Just throwing more miles at your training will make you slower not faster.

This posting under 5 different usernames by the extremely superior coach JS is borderline schizophrenic and to a certain extent hilarious.

I am 5’3. I raced my best when I was 110 pounds. While racing, I did many things wrong when training for the marathon. I did too many miles and did not focus enough of my training on long tempos/thresholds and progression runs. Maybe try bringing your mileage down to 60-70, but make sure you are doing the quality runs at a challenging distance and pace. Long progression runs could really help you. All my 5ks, 10ks and 1/2s indicated I could do a 2:48, but my marathon was slower. I really think it was due to the lack of progression runs and long threshold workouts. My key workouts just weren’t enough in duration, so I couldn’t sustain my pace for the whole marathon.

Used to, not use too

Superiority complex wrote:

This posting under 5 different usernames by the extremely superior coach JS is borderline schizophrenic and to a certain extent hilarious.

???

ladyrunner12 wrote:

I'm 5'3 and 115# female.. I don't feel too heavy to run fast. Any runners doing well who are built like this?

In what world is this considered "heavy"? Ridiculous!

OP, you would benefit from joining a good club team, with an experienced coach. Where are you located?