Can barely break 3:30 on the marathon with at least 50mpw

I ran similar times and hit similar plateaus in the marathon. Bumping up to 70+ mpw got me to sub 3:10. I've been going even higher in pursuit of sub 3 and it's working. High mileage really helps a lot especially with the marathon.

I did all the work for you. I am 47, 205, and couldn't not break 325 in the marathon on Hanson's plan (kept bonking at 20). I added miles to the long runs, as well as some easy runs, and ran my easy runs slower. I cruised to a 317 after this adjustment taking only Gatorade and no gels.

This enhanced plan is similar to one on their website.

Just to give an alternative perspective, I personally think you are doing plenty of mileage. I ended up running 2:59 on 28 mpw (18-week average). Here are my thoughts:

1. I'd recommend backing off of the marathon training for awhile with a strong focus on developing your anaerobic threshold and VO2 Max. Maybe you could work through a Daniels' 5k plan until you can break 18 minutes or at least 19. You need to have a good baseline of fitness.

2. Make sure you are running only enough mileage that you can recover from. You should be able to complete your workouts at the intended pace. If you can't finish the workout or can't make the pace, you are probably running too many miles. If you don't recover, you'll never improve. Just because you aren't injured at a specific mileage doesn't mean that it is beneficial.

3. Once you have a good baseline fitness to reach your marathon goal (step 1), experiment with fueling rates during your long runs. I personally found it was a night and day difference at the end of long runs with proper fueling. You'll know when you get it right because you'll feel almost as good at mile 18 as you did at mile 1.

Overall, I believe that if you can "prove" your fitness at shorter distances through developing your threshold and VO2 Max, maintain the maximum mileage that you can recover from, and optimize your fueling, you will complete or exceed your marathon goal!

Good luck!

People discount talent and ability. I have run 4 marathons under 3:20. I never exceed 50 in any one of those training cycles. I know that’s not that fast.

I did have decades of running though.

Your experience is not typical. I hate when people get on LRC who have a ton of talent and then say look I ran only 30 mpw. You clearly have the talent to run sub 2:30 with the proper mileage so it isn't fair to compare to the majority of people who couldn't break 2:45 no matter how much they ran.

OP - it honestly may just be a talent issue. Running 50 MPW is not a guarantee to go sub 3. You may be on the lower end of the talent spectrum which means you require a ton of mileage to get there. I would say most people don't realize their athletic abilities at the marathon distance until you get to 70-80 MPW consistently over a few cycles. Also, this has nothing to do with fueling, don't listen to that advice. I would believe that more if you could run sub 1:30 in the half and then ran 3:30 in the marathon.

disagree with a lot of the other posters wrote:

You lack endurance. You certainly don't need track work and likely don't need tempo work. You need to run for a long time consistently.

Your mid-week runs are probably too short.

Agree with this.

First of all, the various pace charts that rate equivalent half marathons and marathon times often double your half and add about 9-10 miunutes, but in my experience, most undertained casual 3:30 to 3:45 marathoners can double their half and add 15 to 20 minutes. 50 miles per week is enough to finish a marathon; not enough to double your half and add 10.

If half the year you're averaging 30 a week, you are not going to improve. If you take a couple months to run 30 a week, add cycling or something. But I think if you could average 50 a week for a year, and build up to as high as 60-70 in the period from 12 weeks to 2 weeks before your race, you could improve considerably. I try to do about 12-14 long runs in the 16 weeks before a marathon. I start at 16 miles or so, and build up to several at 20-plus, even 25 or so about 6 weeks before (at a minute slower than goal pace). Also, mid-week, I add a medium-long run, say 12-14 miles, with the last few miles at goal pace and final mile faster, like a progression tempo run. I do 8 or 10 of these in the last 3 months. I also will do 6-8 X 1 mile with 3 minute jogs a couple times in place of the longer midweek progression tempo for variety and to make goal pace feel a little easier.

I don't think you can eat your way to a PR. Yes, gels are good, and electrolyte drinks are important, but whether you take gels every 30 instead of 45 is not nearly as important as training more! I typically have 4 gels with caffeine, at about miles 10, 16, 20 and 23.

For reference, I'm 58, 6'0, 165 pounds, have run 3:12, 3:09, 3;15 and 3:07 this year, and a 1:24:40 half and 19:08 5k. My long runs typically are at 8:30 to 8:00 per mile until the last few miles, when I drop toward 7:30 or even 7:00. On my progression tempos, I might hit 6:50 to 6:40 for the last few miles. My mile reps are at about 6:10. I jog 3-5 miles on easy days, and bike commute 14 miles most days.

Run more.

Yes I'm being a dck, but no you don't need to run more as the above poster has said. It's not talent but simple training improvements that are needed, not extra miles.

The poster couple up has it bang in, don't run mileage for the sake of mileage, start making runs count, make your workouts harder and in-between runs just enough recover as necessary. Stop fannying about and work dude. Get that 5k down first and work upwards towards your marathon goal.

Okay, I'll just disagree once more and then be quiet. This thread is a classical marathon training question -- is it better to improve quality of training for higher VO2 max and economy, or add more mileage and specifically depletion runs.

Of course, ideally, as is the case in so many arguments, the answer is both.

But I side with the more miles crowd. The marathon is a different animal. Sure, quality training is a short-cut that will help your 5k, 10k and half marathon. But at the slower half of the spectrum, people seeking to run under 3:30 like the OP, usually their marathon is worse than their 5 and 10k times would predict because they slow dramatically in the final miles. I know it's simplistic, but I say "run more."

That's all. Thanks for listening, and good luck

just having a higher mpw doesn't make you fast, you have to be doing tempo runs, workouts, long runs, intervals, etc. if you want to improve speed.

Regardless of talent, I still think there can be further optimization at lower mileage. He mentions no specific training at shorter distances. Don't you think this could point to a lack of development of the anaerobic threshold and VO2 Max? Without these tools, how much faster will he get with increasing mileage? What if the mileage he is at currently is preventing him from recovering properly, leading to a stagnation?

Also, there's no reason to tank the 2nd half of a marathon at 50 mpw (minimum), having completed the proper long runs. I really believe this could be a nutrition issue. I've coached several 3:00 - 3:30 runners and have seen huge improvement with proper fueling. All 3 of these ran less mileage and had 5k personal bests in the 19-21 minute range.

I'm sorry you hate when people like me get on LRC.

Sounds like time for a coach. And a bunch of anon "experts" on LRC don't count.

You lack the talent to run fast on 30mpw year round and just 12 weeks of 50mpw.

Run more or concentrate on short distances, I mean I won't even bother about running a marathon without breaking 1.30 in the half and 40 in the 10k first.

I tend to believe the problem is not low mileage. 50mpw is by no mean low. At very least, running at this mileage should have produced significant improvement. I don't know if this is the case for the OP. But if no, then that means these miles are not run right. And I lean toward that they are run too fast, because

1. It's a common mistake of runner erring in the direction of working too hard, not giving their bodies the time to recover and reap the benefits of improved aerobic ability.

2. Slow mlies are enough for base building, and thus the OP should have already seen the benefits.

I also barely broke 3:30 on 50-60 miles a week. So I ran more, a lot more. I got under 3:00 on about 100 a week and to 2:35 on 100-150. Didn't matter what other people were running. I needed to run that much. If that approach doesn't appeal to you I think you could try racing a lot, maybe every other week at any distance available.

disagree with a lot of the other posters wrote:

You lack endurance. You certainly don't need track work and likely don't need tempo work. You need to run for a long time consistently.

Your mid-week runs are probably too short.

I do 50-60 mpw and have run 2:31. Some of my long runs represent 35-40% of my weekly mileage. I've done the best when i just have a year or two of consistent mileage between 40-55 mpw before a marathon build-up. I've actually had really good HM results from easy training doing 45 mpw and one short workout like 8 x 2:00 at 10k pace with short rest.

I was an above avg college runner though (1:51 / 4:06 mile) so I am probably under-achieving!!!!! I just don't have interest in longer stuff, i get hurt if I do more than 60 mpw before people start chiming in. I generally stay around 35-40 mpw

my weekly long run is usually 17-22 mi during the last 8-9 weeks of marathon build-up. Here's two typical "big" weeks for me before i ran 2:31 (not consecutive weeks):

Mon - 4 easy (8:30 pace)

Tues - 6 easy

Wed - 1.5 mile w/u - 3 x 3 mi @ slightly faster than MP - 2 mins jog rest - 2 mile cool-down (13 mi total)

Thurs - 5 easy (felt awful)

Fri - 6 easy

Sat - 22 w/ 13 at MP (4.5 mi warm-up, 4.5 mile cool-down)

Sun - 4 super easy

60 mi

Mon - 5 easy

Tues - 7.5 easy (1 hour)

Wed - 2 w/u, 7 mile tempo (5:46/44/41/38/35/31/28) - 2 mile cool-down (11 mi total)

Thurs - 4 easy

Fri - 6 easy

Sat - 17 mi total (4-3-2-1: 4@ MP, 1 mi @ 7:00, etc ) 2 w/u, 2 c/d

Sun - 4 super easy

55 mi

joho wrote:

Your times are about in line with how I performed in the marathon. Ran several 4 hours+, then 3:30, then 3:15, then finally ran several sub 3s.

The jump from 3:30 to sub 3 came as I increased mileage. I ran my first sub 3 on 65mpw peak. I was doing the traditional 1 tempo and 1 interval session per week along with a long run.

The mileage can make a big difference especially in those last few miles of the marathon.

^^this is the only response worth reading.

More mileage is the only answer.

Go to 60 mpw, but do it in 6 days with a day off.

One long run a week.

A second long run, about two-thirds the distance, with the second half of it at or near marathon pace.

One distance run a week with lots of hills

One tempo run a week... with 25 mins at your half marathon pace.

Other two days easy.

One day off, probably after your second long run.

On every run, start slow and slowly go faster. On any interval you ever do, do the same.

Two opinions:

1. I think you’re lacking in the mental game.

2. You have to spend time at marathon pace. You admitted you aren’t comfortable at marathon pace. How can it be MP then? You said you avoid those types of runs, which goes back to point one.

Your long run should be something like 30min easy, 12 miles at MP, 3-4 mile warm down. Practice fueling on these. You might even try jumping right into XT after these to spend more time with your HR elevated.

I'm going to disagree slightly with the letsrun crowd and say you need to improve your basic speed. This doesn't mean you need to do tons of speed work -- it means you need to train smarter. What does your training plan look like, do you do track workouts, tempo runs, long runs? Do you do them with other people?

If you're struggling to run 7 minute mile pace for a 10K, you're not going to be able to run that pace for a marathon, which means you're not going to be able to get much closer to 3 hours unless you make improvements across the board. A 43 minute 10K (or 20 minute 5K) are times that most people are capable of beating with normal training, especially off of 50 mpw. So that's why I'm wondering if there's something you can improve with your current training.