LRC 'Experts': African Times Will Slow Down. Selemon Barega & Beatrice Chepkoech: Hold our ?

Renato,

why would Asbel Kiprop risk tarnishing his entire glorious career by doping at the end of it? It would make more sense that he doped the entire time. Do you have evidence that he started doping in 2015?

For roughly 100 years of Major League Baseball we have seen aging baseball players go to a corked bat. Why? As one gets older, bat speed decreases. Do you recall someone getting caught with a corked bat in baseball minor leagues? Have you heard of someone in their early twenties being caught with a corked bat? Same thing with a pitcher throwing an altered baseball. Do we ever see a teenage pitcher or a pitcher in his early twenties throwing a vaseline ball (petroleum jelly)? Do we ever see a young pitcher throwing a ball altered by an emery board while the pitcher is young?

El Keniano wrote:

? ? ?.

That is all.

Lol. What a buffoon. Crackdown has only started in Kenya, and obviously must continue into the other E. frican sh*tholes.

Perhaps the EPOpians realized this may be their last hoorah with unabridged doping and they went for it.

I can't be sure that he was doped, too many strange things happened with him. However, if in the lab they found EPO, he doped, because it's not possible to assume EPO with some other medicine, but it has to be injected (while, for example, many steroids are in medicines produced in Asia and specifically India, without any information for who buys the medicine).

But I'm sure that his talent was enough for running under 3'27" also with wrong training, till when he preserved in his body a good percentage of the aerobic power he developed when younger.

When I speak of "Weak Mind", this is not a joke. Really, also athletes completely against doping when were at the top of the world, when started to look "behind" instead looking "ahead", fearing to lose their position (and position is not only money, but also glory, and, something wrong but important in the World of today, image), started to look for external aids, falling down in the spiral of doping.

I have too many examples of athletes refusing any help when at their best, thinking they were the best because their talent, their training, their attitude, and this feeling was corroborated by the MENTAL STRENGTH and certainty to be the number one.

If somebody has in his mind the IAAF final of 3000 steeple in Monaco 2003, when Shaheen, not trained after winning WCh, was 40 meters behind Paul Koech with one lap to go, and later finished in 56" catching Paul 2 meters before the finish line ; or WCh 2007 in Osaka in 10000m, when Matathi attacked Bekele with 3 laps to go taking a gap of almost 50 meters, followed by Sihine, and after Kenenisa was able to go back winning with the last 200m in 26", it's possible to understand the incredible moral strength, the ability to ignore the pain, the sufferance that nobody else is able to live, that are the product of an amazing ego and self confidence. Using doping, all this is not possible.

And it's not a joke that sometimes injured athletes, under the pressure of managers, parents, friends, if have the opportunity to have a big money in a race (for example, 200,000 USD of appearance for starting in a Major Marathon that already they won the previous year) try to take something for reducing the time of recovery, and in this case EPO and other illegal medicines can be useful.

So, instead to look at doping for the best at the moment (of course, I speak about endurance events only), you need to look at doping for who tries to fill the gap with the best, or for who was the best and is going down as shape and performances.

But don't think impossible to achieve big results and WR in clean way.

You need to know something more about athletics, that is not born today. For example, Kipyegon Bett seems a big talent, but his PB (1'43"76) gives him the position 98 all time, and is the performance n. 423 ever (that means already there were 423 performances better than 1'43"76). So, what today seems a top performance, really, in the athletic history, is a normal time, that doesn't need any athlete of extra-talent for being achieved.

If you know athletics, you can know the limits of the real extra-class athletes, not many in the history : 12'37" is the time of a super champion, but 12'50" - 12'52" is time that NORMAL athletes were able to achieve, in perfect conditions, without being able to repeat because the conditions were no more the same. And they did this completely clean.

The young Ingebrigtsen shows what is possible to do if a good talent believes in himself, the same happened last year with Sondre Moen.

Before speaking, it's better to know a little more about the materia of your discussion.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Ben True was the clean winner.

Hello racist.

It makes no sense to me that one can state that Jakob is a clean, 17 year old Norwegian boy from the only family in Norway that takes running seriously, who has run 3:31.1 for 1500m, predict that in a few years he will run 3:28, but believe it impossible for any African to do so.

Despite Ethiopia and Kenya having vastly larger serious participation rates in this sport.

The population of Norway is 5 million.

The population of Ethiopia is f*cking 100 million and that's considering they probably can't do a great head count there.

Simple maths. Of course there will be some Jakobs over there. And some Filips. And some Coe's.

Fair enough. So why aren't there any Chinese running sub 3:35 out of a population of over 1 billion? This surely proves that every runner in history who has ran fater than 3:35 has doped, and that the Chinese, for some reason, are clean?

Or what if China started dominating the 1500m and suddenly were producing sub 3:28 guys. El K and all the other doping apologists would be screaming ped accusations at them. But by your logic, it would be absurd to believe that a country of 1 billion couldn't produce sub 3:28 guys if Kenyans and Moroccans, and Brits (hypothetically on modern tracks) have shown they can.

Mate, I'm just going by the fact that there is a clear and evident horrendous doping culture in Kenya, and all Kenyan elite times are at least a little suspect now to anyone but a handful of hardcore nutjobs here on this running forum.

That just shows what kind of 'knowledge' of running you really possess.

Not being disrespectful, but did you actually pass your maths GCSE? I studied logic at one of the top 10 universities in the world.

You don't know anything about logic.

China probably could produce many great distance runners, but it's not popular there. Ask that Ghost guy.

Extremely simple.

Coevett wrote:

Mate, I'm just going by the fact that there is a clear and evident horrendous doping culture in Kenya, and all Kenyan elite times are at least a little suspect now to anyone but a handful of hardcore nutjobs here on this running forum.

Only that's not a fact Coefart.

Coevett wrote:

I studied logic at one of the top 10 universities in the world.

You don't know anything about logic.

ROFL!!!!!!

You? Logic? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

sigh

I just want to fully outline your 'logical' position.

You believe that the only legitimate 17 year old ever to run 3:31 is Jakob.

And you believe only White guys have cleanly run under 3:30

And my argument is any nation can do it given the widespread participation and training. Africans, Chinese, Brits, Americans anyone. White black Asian whatever.

However I'm the illogical one and you aren't the racist.

Got it.

Coevett wrote:

Not being disrespectful,

I had a chuckle at this.

Mahavishnu1500 wrote:

Renato,

why would Asbel Kiprop risk tarnishing his entire glorious career by doping at the end of it?

Because he's not too bright.

Because in China they do not have a nationally developed culture of distance running or athletics in general. The general populace does not have aspiration to become the best in the world. Aside from Ma,s army in the early 1990s nobody has impacted the world stage from China in distance events.

A culture must exist in order to become the best. Take the All Blacks the national rugby team of my country- New Zealand. The All Blacks have been the best global rugby team for many, many years- this despite a small population of 4 million to draw from. The reason? A huge culture and driving force for rugby is woven into the fabric of NZ life. Nobody believes the All Blacks get their superiority from doping, and yet we consistently destroy other nations who have more financial resources and population numbers to draw from.

ex-runner wrote:

China probably could produce many great distance runners, but it's not popular there. Ask that Ghost guy.

Extremely simple.

You just said that the only family that takes running seriously in a population of 5 million produced 3 elite runners. Now you're saying that in a country of 1.4 billion, there are no runners who have ever ran under 3:36 because it aint popular over there.

Oh, and when did I call you racist? I've been threatened, harassed, and banned as 'racist' for claiming that Kenyans aren't naturally superior to other races.

Sorry, you don't have much grasp of logic. I suspect elite Kenyan runners of doping, because Kenya has been exposed as having a horrendous, massive, endemic doping problem. Just because white runners have run as fast as the top Kenyans are running now, doesn't mean it's wrong to suspect those Kenyans.

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

China probably could produce many great distance runners, but it's not popular there. Ask that Ghost guy.

Extremely simple.

You just said that the only family that takes running seriously in a population of 5 million produced 3 elite runners. Now you're saying that in a country of 1.4 billion, there are no runners who have ever ran under 3:36 because it aint popular over there.

Oh, and when did I call you racist? I've been threatened, harassed, and banned as 'racist' for claiming that Kenyans aren't naturally superior to other races.

Sorry, you don't have much grasp of logic. I suspect elite Kenyan runners of doping, because Kenya has been exposed as having a horrendous, massive, endemic doping problem. Just because white runners have run as fast as the top Kenyans are running now, doesn't mean it's wrong to suspect those Kenyans.

I thought you studied 'logic' at the best university in the world or something?

Obviously the prerequisite of the population taking running seriously has to exist. People aren't just born and think 'hmm i bet I'd be good at the 1500m, better go make that my life goal'. I didn't think I needed to explain that bit to you.

If you think one white family in Norway can produce three clean world class 1500m runners (one of which is 17) then how can you logically say with any confidence that the entirety of Africa (population of 1.2 billion) has NEVER produced a SINGLE CLEAN world class 1500m runner.

It's beyond idiotic to suggest that.

Even if you think 90% are doped, the numbers simply say that there would be at least one clean Black 3:30 guy, like Filip has managed.

Instead you believe it is logical to say that 100% are/were doped across all time. Meanwhile none of the Whites have ever doped in running ever. 100% clean status.

Maybe you want to reread that 'logic' degree. Sure it wasn't Logistics at the University of Wolverhampton?

ex-runner wrote:

Maybe you want to reread that 'logic' degree. Sure it wasn't Logistics at the University of Wolverhampton?

And there went my tea!

hahaha thank you ex-runner.

Coach outlines perfectly why Paula was so successful. Lots and lots of miles and lots of hard work...it’s not rocket science.

Hill Run wrote:

Coevett wrote:

So why aren't there any Chinese running sub 3:35 out of a population of over 1 billion?

Because in China they do not have a nationally developed culture of distance running or athletics in general. The general populace does not have aspiration to become the best in the world.

The same reason China has not produced the world's best soccer players.

Or skiers

Or tennis players

Or cyclists

Or golfers

Or boxers

Using Coevett's logic about 20% of the players in the English Premier League should be Chinese, ie about 110 players.

In fact there have been just five, all time, and none in the past ten years:

Dong Fangzhuo – Manchester United – 2006–07

Li Tie – Everton – 2002–04

Li Weifeng – Everton – 2002–03

Sun Jihai – Manchester City – 2002–08

Zheng Zhi – Charlton Athletic – 2006–07

Raddison wrote:

Hill Run wrote:

Because in China they do not have a nationally developed culture of distance running or athletics in general. The general populace does not have aspiration to become the best in the world.

The same reason China has not produced the world's best soccer players.

Or skiers

Or tennis players

Or cyclists

Or golfers

Or boxers

Using Coevett's logic about 20% of the players in the English Premier League should be Chinese, ie about 110 players.

In fact there have been just five, all time, and none in the past ten years:

Dong Fangzhuo – Manchester United – 2006–07

Li Tie – Everton – 2002–04

Li Weifeng – Everton – 2002–03

Sun Jihai – Manchester City – 2002–08

Zheng Zhi – Charlton Athletic – 2006–07

Coevett was kind of saying that China doesn't dominate running despite their large population.

This was to refute my idea that Africa does well in running because of their population.

So he is saying it doesn't matter how many Africans or Chinese there are, the Europeans are the best and cleanest.

So essentially he is making the argument that whites are superior at running than Africans, and the Chinese and all the other ethnic groups, inherently, by design.

Because only whites have run sub 3:30 clean, and their population is small.