LRC 'Experts': African Times Will Slow Down. Selemon Barega & Beatrice Chepkoech: Hold our ?

So, you are going to change your name to El Etiopiano because Kenyan doping took the beat down?

Ben True was the clean winner.

NameChanger wrote:

So, you are going to change your name to El Etiopiano because Kenyan doping took the beat down?

Why? I'm Kenyan.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Ben True was the clean winner.

Chelimo!

In all seriousness, I think there’s no way in hell Mo Ahmed is dirty if you want to discard Chelimo.

True still ran really well

NameChanger wrote:

So, you are going to change your name to El Etiopiano because Kenyan doping took the beat down?

+1

Worse thing is El K and his Kenyan buddies on this board have a visceral hatred of 'good for nuffin' Ethiopians and want them all kicked out of their country.

Ethiopians running crazy 5000 times only highlights how pathetic Kenya are now at the event. Don't Ethiopians 'go to the roads'?

And why hasn't El K commented on Korir's performance tonight? A couple of weeks ago he was desperate to break the world record in Brum, now he doesn't even try to follow the pacemaker and strains with every sinew and head roll to break 1:45 and fend off a Polish 1500m runner?

Still, Subway is right (as usual) that doping in Ethiopia is probably even worse than Kenya. Hopefully next year when Ethiopians have to be tested at least 3 times in the 10 months before Doha, the EPO times will come back to the new East African norm (ie. Kenyan 1:45, 3:31, 13:05).

You are such a pathetic loser. You can't decide if you want to praise the Ethiopians or insult them (simply in order to try and piss off El K). In the end you of course settled on insults because that's what you do best.

Coefart, why don't you celebrate your future Olympic champions Chris Thompson and Ben Connor. Both have run 13:25 this season. Best British guys. And they are WHITE. Thompson will not improve, but Connor should run 13:22 next year.

Oh God. It upsets me how little you know about running. How is 1:45/3:31/13:05 the new East African norm you crazy person?!

The times this year are 1:42.0 3:28 and 12 f*cking 43?! Some of the fastest times ever!

That 800 was tactical, did you not see the bunching before the bell? They went through in 51 high 52 low then slowed over the next 200m. Then Korir tore the field apart with his kick, only Lewandowski can match that kick.

That Polish 800m runner is extremely talented, successful and experienced, he's run 1:43 and would destroy any of our Brits over 800 or 1500 and has all season.

Have some respect.

Coevett wrote:

NameChanger wrote:

So, you are going to change your name to El Etiopiano because Kenyan doping took the beat down?

+1

Worse thing is El K and his Kenyan buddies on this board have a visceral hatred of 'good for nuffin' Ethiopians and want them all kicked out of their country.

Kenyans don't do xenophobia or any of the kind of politics engulfing western countries that targets and scapegoats refugees, immigrants and other foreigners. .Just not our thing.

El Keniano wrote:

? ? ?.

That is all.

Well, that settles it in my mind. No Kenyan on the planet writes/speaks that way.

El Keniano wrote:

I'm Kenyan.

El Keniano wrote:

Kenyans don't do xenophobia or any of the kind of politics engulfing western countries that targets and scapegoats refugees, immigrants and other foreigners. .Just not our thing.

Lol you’ve been talking about ‘foreign influences’ bringing drugs into Kenya and how they should be expelled. This is just blatantly untrue.

Chelimo! wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

Ben True was the clean winner.

Chelimo!

In all seriousness, I think there’s no way in hell Mo Ahmed is dirty if you want to discard Chelimo.

True still ran really well

I would love to find out how many times this guy has been tested in the past year OOC.

Scrotevett wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

Kenyans don't do xenophobia or any of the kind of politics engulfing western countries that targets and scapegoats refugees, immigrants and other foreigners. .Just not our thing.

Lol you’ve been talking about ‘foreign influences’ bringing drugs into Kenya and how they should be expelled. This is just blatantly untrue.

All El K does is xenophobic and he hates the Robertsons with a passion.

Scrotevett wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

Kenyans don't do xenophobia or any of the kind of politics engulfing western countries that targets and scapegoats refugees, immigrants and other foreigners. .Just not our thing.

Lol you’ve been talking about ‘foreign influences’ bringing drugs into Kenya and how they should be expelled. This is just blatantly untrue.

You want all foreigners kicked out of Kenya, including those 'criminal' Nigerians and 'good for nuffin' Ethiopians.

Although my anonymous psychotic stalker obviously hasn't got any problem with black on black racism, nor foreigners coming in to provide the good stuff, such as Italian doctors injecting Kenyan kids with HGH leaving them looking like the elephant man.

Coevett, please, who is the Italian doctor injecting Kenyan kids with HGH ?

It's time you quit to insult people in general way, changing the title of what you wrote, according to your convenience.

If I well remember, the other long thread you started was about AFRICAN results, achieved because of PEDs only.

And your thesis were that the average time of 5000m and 10000m went down every year BECAUSE OF MORE STRICT ANTIDOPING ; that the times had to be 1'45" - 13'05" and maybe 2 h 07' in marathon ; that UK athletes were all clean, and somebody was cheated for a medal in WCh ; and that, like your friend mindweak says, ALL THE CURRENT TIMES ARE 4% FASTER THAN THE REAL INDIVIDUAL POSSIBILITIES, putting the limits to a ridiculous level.

Some question : How is that in 1500m GBR had in the period between 80 and 90 some of the best in the world (Cram 3'29"67 in 85, Coe 3'29"77 in 86, Ovett 3'30"77 in 83) and in the next period of 30 years only Mayock (3'31"86 in 97), O'Hare (3'32"11 this year) and East (3'32"37 in 2004) ?

How is that in the Marathon GBR had Ron Hill running 2:09'28" in 1970, Ian Thompson 2:09'12" in 1974, Hugh Jones 2:09'24" in 1982, Geoff Smith 2:09'03" in 1983, Charles Spedding 2:08'33" and Steve Jones 2:07'13" in 1985, and in 2003 THE BEST MAN WAS SLOWER THAN PAULA RADCLIFFE RUNNING OVER 2:15' ?

Why, instead to look at the SUPPOSED doping of other people, you don't ask yourself WHY you are no more able to produce runners of the same level ?

Maybe British runners were doped in the past ? I don't think, because for me all the athletes I named above were clean.

Or maybe the training after 1990 BECAME WORSE because there was a dramatic decrease of volume and the athletes were no more aggressive with themselves like the athletes of the previous period ?

Ask Steve Jones or David Bedford about their training, instead thinking good athletes need EPO for running a marathon in 2:05' or 1500m under 3'30".

It's your mentality, and the mentality of people like you, that produces the increase in the number of athletes looking at doping. But the reality is that the training of the athletes of today (including Kenyans and Ethiopians) is very much more SOFT than the training of 30 and 20 years ago.

Today I was on the track in Iten, and I had with me a new boy (REALLY born in 2002) who is the brother of one of the strongest women in the world, and has a normal training of 30' before going to school, 5 days per week. I never saw him running, his sister gave me the boy for checking his talent before starting real training during the periods of vacation from the school.

I asked him to run (without spikes) one set of 600m + 500m + 400m + 300m + 200m with 2' recovery, in 1'40" - 1'22" - 1'04" - 46" - 29", and he started with 1'30", so I opened the recovery to 3', and he continued with 1'16" - 58"3 - 42"1 - 26"8. I gave him 6' recovery before the next set, and he ran 1'32" - 1'17" - 60"8 - 42"3 - 27"3. I gave him other 6' for the final set, and he ran 1'29"8 - 1'14"4 - 59"2 - 40"8 - 26"2.

This is the training of a talented athlete 16 years old, coming directly from the bush, without any previous preparation, apart running 30' FAST before the school. This boy can run 3'38" just now.

This is the type of talent we can find here, without any external help, and, if they find a coach able to give them the right programs and advices, in order to last maybe 10 or more years in athletics, I don't see any reason because they can run after 6-7 years of right training, under 3'26" or in 12'35" WITHOUT ANY SUPPLEMENT.

I agree that the race of yesterday was so fast because of Kejelcha, but you MUST understand that after 2012 in Paris there was not one race for running fast, and nobody had interest to try fast times.

About 10000m, the situation is still worse, because practically the event exists only more in the Championships. The best seasonal time this year is 27'19"62 of Cheptegei, that is the performance number.... 365 all-time !

If you don't understand that the time depends on the race, and in 1500m it's normal to see a difference of more than 5" if there is a fast pace, or there is not any pacer, and in 5000m the difference can be of 15", you really don't know anything about athletics.

With the train of El Guerrouj, we had a lot of athletes running under 3'30", and many under 3'32" without big talents.

With the train of Bekele, under 13' was normal for a lot of NOT STRONG athletes.

But why organizers have to spend money for the pacers, when nobody can attack some record ? So, after Bekele left track, never there was interest to organize races for fast times, because for a spectator not knowing athletics it's better to see a competition finishing in 13'10" with the last km in 2'25" and 6 athletes still fighting, than a race in 12'52" with onw or two athletes in front and the other 50 meters behind.

I'm sure next year we can see some fast 5000m again, because Kejelcha and Barega can try to attack the WR, and the organizers will be interested to organize the race in the best way (exactly what every year happens for 1500m in Monaco).

You have to decide if it's more important the competition, or the doping.

Really, I'm tired of all the bullshits about doping that I continue to read in LR, while very few people are interested in technical discussion, in order to better understand what athletics is.

Renato Canova wrote:

Coevett, please, who is the Italian doctor injecting Kenyan kids with HGH ?

It's time you quit to insult people in general way, changing the title of what you wrote, according to your convenience.

O.K, I'll admit that was wrong. Not that I don't think there are foreign coaches or Kenyan coached paid by foreign managers to inject Kenyan kids with HGH, but it was wrong to say 'Italian' coaches, which some might interpret I was suggesting you might be doing so, which I don't for a moment. You seem like a decent guy, although the fact that you have never admitted that there is a huge doping problem in Kenya, and even denied that EPO works on Kenyan elite runners, despite being involved with Kenyan athletics and coaching top Kenyan runners for years, is disappointing. Why aren't you more angry with the dopers ruining the reputation of Kenyan athletics (and your clean athletes and your reputation) instead of arguing alongside Rekrunner that EPO doesn't work and alongside the racist El K that only a small minority of Kenyan elites dope, which is clearly laughable at this point?

Coevett, I admit that there is, NOW, a big problem of doping in Kenya. What I don't admit is that there was a big problem in the past.

Just yesterday a my old athlete, James Kwalia (who was World Junior Record Holder in Mile with 3'50"47 in 2003, when also ran 12'54" in 5000m, and ran 7'28" in 2004, and won bronze medal in WCh 2009 in 5000m), who now is one of the politicians in Mont Elgon, spoke in my room (we were looking Brussels in TV) about how much the mentality of young Kenyans changed in the last 5 years in training, because now the training is very much more soft that in the past. Less volume, less aerobic support for the intensity, and probably this is due to the marathon mentality, because now everybody wants to prepare the marathon also when very young, and they go for long run almost every day, but the intensity is not like years ago. On the other side, the athletes for shorter distances don't mix themselves (like they did in the past) for the specialists of long endurance, and practically don't have the aerobic support needed for developing the lactic area, that is of primary importance for their event.

I give you two clear example, one about Asbel Kiprop, another about Silas Kiplagat.

Last year, after running very bad the mile in Eugene (won by Ronald Kwemoi), he sent me a message asking if I could prepare a plan for him. When I went back Iten, I met him, and I told him : "Asbel, I think you can still try to better the WR, but you have to change drastically your training. You are an "Aerobic animal", able to win the World Cross Country when junior in Mombasa 2007 in 8 km. If the Asbel 2007 runs with the Asbel 2017 in 8 km, gives him 3 minutes, and this is not possible. You lost ALL your aerobic power, looking at lactic workouts only, and in this way, year after year, you can only become weaker".

I gave him a program of one week. In this program, on 3rd of June, I put 8 km at 3'06" in 24'48", something in Kenya ridiculous for a junior too. The next day I received a message like this :

"Training is damn tiresome. I didn't do 24:48 yesterday. I did 25:36 the corse was sophy, plus some 200m slophy road sprints at 27 and 26 just after finishing the 8 km. I didn't have a comfortable sleep".

These are exactly the words he wrote me (I have still in my WhatsApp). I don't know what sophy means, probably means sloping., but what I say is that 8 km at 3'12" pace is something we use with not less than 20 Kenyan women in training, and this from a previous World Junior Champion in Cross Country !

About Silas, when I started with him he came from a competition of 10 km on road in 28:00. In 6 months, going to a specific training for 1500m, he won Monaco in 2010 in 3'29".

In 2016 he was no more able to run 10 km in 31'.

This is the reason because I think the best times of Asbel were clean till when he had in his training some long run fast, and this happened for sure till 2015. Maybe that after that date he looked for some "replacement" of long fast run, or maybe not, but in any case he lost the aerobic support, and the same happened to Silas.

What happened in GBR for almost 20 years (1990-2010), when the volume disappeared and everybody looked at intensity and a lot of exercises (so, with the volume also the athletes disappeared...), is now happening in Kenya too : only the marathon runners run a proper volume, while the athletes of short distance became lazy about this type of fatigue (and in Kenya, apart Rudisha, the best runners of 800m are ALL aerobic athletes).

One of the reasons of this situation is the calendar of the competitions, that looks at the last races already in June.

This year, for example, there were the Trials for Commonwealth Games in February, one meeting cancelled in Nakuru for the rain (the track is of earth), nothing in May, and in June a competition every day, but reserved to the athletes of the military corps (Defense at the beginning, then Police, then Prisons, then the Trials for World Junior and at the end National Championships). So, new athletes of big talent, but not yet with PB of international level, had ONE OPPORTUNITY only for competing, and after this nothing in July, August, September, October (when already the Cross Country season starts), November, December, January, February and March. So, 9 months without competitions : how is it possible to maintain the motivation in a similar situation ? For this reason, because they don't run Cross Country, there is little or no training, and they are not able to improve season after season, because always go to destroy what previously were able to build.

On the opposite, I well know what is possible to achieve with training only if the athlete has talent, focus and discipline.

In the camp in Iten I grew an Assistant Coach who was also my athlete in the past : John Litei, 1'44" in 800m and bronze medal in Commonwealth Games 2006. He is very serious, strict and passionate person, and in our camp the discipline is the first requirement. We started this camp last year in March. In something like one year, from nothing, but with discipline, we had the following results in HM : Erick Kiptanui 58'42" (he was a 1500m runner for 3'37" and never ran some competiion in longer distances till 2016), Daniel Kipchumba 59'06" (was a steeple runner of 8'34"), Josphat Boit 59'19" and now is the last pacer for Eliud Kipchoge in Berlin (starting activity in May of last year only, winning a selection of Police with 14'14" in 5000m), Noah Kipkemboi (totally new) 60'51", Victor Chumo (winning today Lille) 60'03", plus a lot of other runners, young, like the young brother of Ronald Kwemoi (born in 2001), who became National Champion of 5000m in Nairobi in a tactical race, winning in 13'38" after running, in 10 days, 5 times 5000m because of the crazy calendar they had.

Without speaking of the athletes of the past, from Saheen WR holder, to Nicholas Kemboi 26'30" with real 3 months of specific preparation. AND ALL THESE IN CLEAN WAY.

So, supposing we can have some advantage with doping (but with these results I think NO), don't do the mistake to think that is NOT possible run fast WITHOUT doping, because this position can provoke two reactions only : or the athletes WANT doping thinking is the only way for being competitive, or, if refuse doping, THEY GO TO LIMIT THEMSELVES IN THEIR GOALS. So, you think to have a tough position against dopers, but at the end you are one enforcing the idea of doping in the athletes who are nothing to lose.

At the end, I don't deny there is a doping problem, but I deny that doping can work (especially in longer events) IF THE ATHLETES TRAIN WITH CONTINUITY, DISCIPLINE and in PROPER WAY.

All the researches about normal people, or weak athletes, without any idea about their training, are BULLSHITS, and for all my life I continue to contest the conclusions, if transferred to the top athletes.

All this says is that Kenya is not the only African country with a doping problem.