Coach forcing me to run no slower than 8 minute pace in practice...I'm a 21 min 5K girl

While I think you should try to see an 8 min/mile pace won't burn you out, I agree with you that it is ridiculous that he is threatening your varsity spot because of it. As far as how to deal with him, I say just run what is comfortably uncomfortable (if that makes any sense) and work hard on your non-easy days. If he is gonna demote you to JV when you are a better runner than most of the varsity, that isn't a great look for him and something you could possibly talk about with to your athletic director. My coach in high school acted similarly. It was definitely not fun but if you enjoy running just keep working at it.

Yikes. Sorry about this situation! My high school girls team also had a lot of easy-pace tension. I think that everybody's bodies respond differently and need different paces for easy days. Some people can run 21 minute 5ks and happily sustain sub-8 minute easy days. But others find it much more comfortable to back off a bit, and I don't believe the pace of them truly matters in the scheme of things. (As you know, you aren't going to gain or lose fitness, but are more likely to be tired for those tempos if you take your easy days on the hard side. And I think the detriment of having to back off the hard day because you are tired outweighs the slim potential for fitness improvement). In high school, I ran sub-19, and I definitely ran most of my easy days between 8:30-9 minute pace. In college, I ran sub-18, and I still ran my easy days over 8 minutes. Heck, even now I'm surprised if my easy days are sub-8. But I also think mileage is a factor. What kind of weekly mileage are you doing?

Another potential solution: don't wear a watch. Go off of feel and make sure you finish your easy days feeling good and fresh. You might be running 8:30 pace, you might be running 7:45 pace. And really, the numbers don't matter, how your body feels does.

Good luck with both your practices and your xc season!

coach wrote:

masters of disasters wrote:

So you think my coach is right? I should just suck it up and run 8 min pace? Also I'm not a troll, not sure why my story is so hard to believe.

I wouldn't ask you to suck it up and run 8 minute pace if you're sincere that it's tough for you. However it's not crazy for a decent HS girl like you to be expected to run 4 miles @ 8 minute a mile.

FWIW: Daniel's formula would say 'easy/long run pace' for a 21:2x 5k runner is 8:50 pace.

My philosophy as a coach has always been 'hard days should be hard, easy days should be easy' so, in my opinion, your coach should chill.

4/10

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I see his point. I actually have a daughter that is a 21:45 5 K runner. She naturally wants to run around 8:30 on her mileage runs, but it does not look like she responds to it very well. Her older sister was in that range for a while, and got out of it by running 8:00 as much as possible. She now runs 19:56. The younger daughter, however, does not respond to 8:00 pace either. What seems to work for her best is one mile under 7:00 in the middle and the rest in 8:30 or so. I think it really depends on the individual.

The standard rule of mileage run 2 minutes per mile slower than 5 K race pace applies to 16:00 or faster. I think it is a bit misguided, and perhaps the reason is that it was created based on the training data of the runners that are 16:00 or faster. I think we would be closer to the truth if we said that if you do not have the fitness to do the mileage runs at 8:00, then you should go as fast as you can handle and recover from. The problem with paces slower than 8:00, and in particular slower than 10:00 is that they are too close to walking and provide very little muscular stimulus. So your cardio develops to a point, but then the muscles stay too weak and you do not progress.

Easy days easy is the way to go. Your coach doesn't know his stuff.

A pace you can hold for an hour? That's the definition of the 20 minute tempo run.... not an easy run. An easy run is supposed to be a conversational pace, where you're running a good pace but still able to hold a regular like conversation like you would if you weren't exercising. If you can't hold a regular conversation on an easy run, then its too fast.

Fat Joe wrote:

Maybe he's using this training plan:

http://www.coacheseducation.com/xc/jack_farrell_july_00.phphttp://www.coacheseducation.com/xc/jack_farrell_sept_02.php

I doubt it, because:

"For virtually all runners, the frequency was set as daily and the intensity level was the comfort zone."

Farrell's training was good, and can be applied to many types of programs.

The reason people think this is a troll post is because it is hard to believe a coach could be so dogmatic and horrible.

whyitsartrollpost wrote:

The reason people think this is a troll post is because it is hard to believe a coach could be so dogmatic and horrible.

Yes, a middle distance type and a long distance type both run the same 5k time. Did they train the same? Or even just a bigger and a smaller runner. Do they all train the same , need the same things to get it done? Not really.

Thanks. We're doing about 35-40 mpw now, which is down from 45-50 mpw this summer. I hope to get to your level someday (sub 19), and I just don't think hammering my easy days will get me there. I've talked to some girls from other schools who run low to mid 19s and they run slower than we do on easy days. And their teams are way better. Go figure.

My coach actually requires us to wear a watch everyday. Like I said before, he doesn't seem to care about effort. He just says to run 8 min pace because that should be easy for me. So I asked him well what if 8 min pace doesn't feel easy? He said if I run at that pace enough then it will start to feel easy.

Your coach is wrong and too arrogant to come off his position. I lived in Eugene, OR and would sometimes pass elite runners on Pre's Trail. That's how I knew I was doing something wrong on my easy days. I really started to make improvements when I started to take my easy days easy. Easy days are for recovering. Especially at the high school level.

I think the above poster is right that mileage matters. If 50-ish is the highest mileage you've ever done in your life then I can totally see you being tired on easy days and have trouble dropping below 8:00/mile. If you're going to back off to 30-35 during the season it should feel a little easier to hit 8:00/mile. When I'm training for a marathon, and my mileage is high, my easy runs get slower. When I'm not doing high mileage it's easier to speed up a little on easy runs. Go by feel. The more lifetime miles you get, the more you'll improve and figure out what you need to be successful. This one box fits all mentality is garbage for distance running.

If this is a real thread...

Coach's approach is a bit ham-fisted, but running 8:00-flat on everyday runs is not going to kill you as a young girl in roughly 20:30 shape, especially given that you can't possibly be running high mileage.

Make sure you're eating and sleeping well, and you should easily be able to handle this.

masters of disasters wrote:

My coach actually requires us to wear a watch everyday. Like I said before, he doesn't seem to care about effort. He just says to run 8 min pace because that should be easy for me. So I asked him well what if 8 min pace doesn't feel easy? He said if I run at that pace enough then it will start to feel easy.

Just ignore what he says, and run your own pace. That 's what I've always done.

Guys, this really doesn't seem like a troll post to me. Some high school coaches really are this stupid.

Send him the article about why Wejo sucked in college.

Maybe go through the numbers with him a bit. You've already figured it out yourself -- tempo pace is 1-hour race pace, your runs are longer than that so it's simply impossible, the girls are running their tempo runs only ten seconds a mile faster than their easy runs, the coach is turning the tempo days into the easy days, etc.

At the end of the day, your coach is either going to listen to reason or he's not. But it sounds like you haven't decided if he can be reasoned with, so try to do your best on that front.

If he stays irrational, then you'll have to decide what to do. You could listen to him and run like crap, or find ways to take it easy sometimes, or get some knowledgeable parents involved.

Honestly, running 8 minute miles isn't the end of the world. You can find days to run slower on your own, and you'll get faster and it'll get easier. A lot of high school kids do this kind of dumb training so it isn't totally impossible, but we all agree with you that your coach is an idiot.

masters of disasters wrote:

Just run baby! wrote:

Dear troll, all those threads emphasizing how slow you should run easy days are getting old.

Since I doubt you're running high mileage, you should be fresh enough to run 8 min / mile which is slow running, whatever you puts it.

So you think my coach is right? I should just suck it up and run 8 min pace? Also I'm not a troll, not sure why my story is so hard to believe.

I do. Bottom line - your coach thinks you're dogging it, he thinks you are currently capable of a faster 5k and is trying to train you at that level (which is backwards, but everyone does it if they are honest with themselves.)

How about you give it a try and see what happens? You'll be tired at the end of the run, sure, but you'll have 23 hours to recover. Eventually, you may adapt and feel fine and get faster. Or you won't, and you will have more data to make your case. Either way, its worth a shot.

Just reading the title- my daughter was a 20-20:30 18 year old. The college coach made her run all runs, at any distance at 8;00 or faster. By the end of the season she was a 23:00 18 year old.

Never had a true recovery day.

And I was her high school coach. I stressed the slower pace of recovery days.

Yes- coaches like this exist — inflexible and won’t listen. Hang in there. Are the captains open to listening to you?

This isn't what you're going to want to do, but keep going as you are and let him take you off varsity. Once you (most likely) destroy some JV races and run faster than the other girls on your team, that may change his mind. You'll also get to passively rub his nose in it