No, you chose to be insulted . You are offended by my opinion.
I guess we will see what happens in future races won't we?
No, you chose to be insulted . You are offended by my opinion.
I guess we will see what happens in future races won't we?
You know I agree with you on a lot of points there. Lack of focus leads to some inconsistent results. I've made mistakes in my racing/training (i.e. doing Zegama 2 weeks after Copenhagen off of no mountain training was a horrible, horrible idea...I actually was aware of that going into it). I greatly respect guys like Joe Gray and Max King and Pat Smyth etc. (those are just Americans there are also guys like Robbie Simpson) that mix it up in MUT Running events as well as road marathons. Realize I came from a road and track running background and consider those events to be my "roots" (although I always loved cross country more than track in school!). I'm not a "mountain athlete" like a Kilian. I don't ski or rock climb up cliffs. I'm simply a distance runner. I hate having to powerhike. For me it is just a personal, selfish goal....to try to qualify for my 3rd US Olympic Marathon Trials. I think for some ultras the marathon training is good (usually more flat and runnable ultras like Comrades though!). There is a wide range of Mountain-Ultra-Trail Running events and some are very specific (i.e. Sierre-Zinal). I don't pretend to be a "pro road marathon runner" and I honestly don't really care if I never run close to my 2:16:52 marathon PR again. I think maybe if I focused on the roads only I may have had the "talent" to run 2:15...but maybe not. Who knows? Woulda coulda shoulda. I have no excuses and I'm not hiding anywhere. I want to run in the Olympic Marathon trials in 2020 because I like to see how I stack up against the Nation's best in a standard event like the road marathon. Its a super competitive race and it is fun to take part in. Some people like to qualify for the Boston Marathon....I like to try to qualify for the trials once every 4 years. When I toe the starting line of a mountain-ultra-trail race I want it to be a competitive race and I want to compete on the bigger/biggest stages. I always (in the back of my mind) think I have a shot at winning a MUT Race. It could be an epic failure like UTMB or something, but I'll keep training to try to improve at these kinds of ultras. When I toe the starting line of Boston or Chicago or the Olympic Trials I know I'm not going to even be close to winning. I'm just going for the sub 2:19:00 now. Don't we all just run to challenge ourselves and go after goals? For me is actually fun to mix up events and I think it has helped with my longevity in the sport. As I get older I will focus more on the longer ultras and longer mountain stuff.....it is for sure less competitive depth than road marathoning and I think easier to compete at a top level well into one's mid to late 30s even. I've been very fortunate that HOKA ONE ONE makes so many shoes for #AnySurfaceAnyDistance now as I get to try the full spectrum! Granted you won't find me racing on the track anymore. I'm really slow at 5km-10km on a flat road/track. I also don't know what Kilian's IQ is.
too many experts wrote:
[quote]S. Canaday wrote:
You're too stuck up on the distance when it is the nature of the course (profile, climbing, trail type) that I think matters the most. Kilian will only do "real mountain races" for example. It could be a VK or 100-miles but he focuses on legit mountain races purely.
And that is why Kilian is smarter than you and l'm not even talking about his running capacity. You Sage, are all over the place, participate in many and excel in nothing. Classic recipe for mediocrity and constant frustration.
What happened to Joe Gray anyway? Is he done?
ooooh, so your opinion is that we should continue to speculate on runners who will never run a race that they maybe, could have, should have won if they trained and entered? Please continue, I do love to read your posts.
One thing I have seen is that in 10 years Kilian has beaten all those that came to the start line. Certainly has been beaten from time to time.
He is lucky he loves what he does and one of the reasons he is so good. Sage said it above. He does the stuff he loves to do and if that is a bit of everything then that's awesome. Also the reason track stars won't turn up to technical trail ultras - they simply don't like them or have no interest in them.
in defense of joecrunner : isn't speculation and discussion what this board is all about though?
People try to extrapolate and compare performances all the time. But there is a reason you don't see tons of world class 800m/1500m runners chomping at the bit to suddenly do a road marathon...they are very different events. Even a guy that has gone sub 14:00 for 5km isn't "guaranteed to even be a sub 2:20 marathoner." He might be a 2:22 guy or he might turn into a 2:12 guy.
I think a lot of national class marathoners in the US (as well as some speedy track guys) just don't know much about MUT running events and the diversity of what one can do. There are certain barriers to entry as well. It's the same with some really great marathoners from E. Africa...many don't know about ultra marathons and "trail/mountain running." Also in the US, it really depends on geography. Being near some mountains at altitude (or at least hills) can really influence your training and racing interests.
Kilian is for sure beatable. I've seen him get passed and hurt during a race and not win. I've never come close to beating him yet, but generally when we race it is something pretty mountainous or a "skyrunning" event and I'm getting my butt kicked by other guys anyway. If he does win a very competitive race it is usually not by a huge margin and he isn't shattering a lot of the great course records (i.e. he was off the CR at Sierre-Zinal still). - And I don't think he even broke 3:40 at Pikes Peak Marathon.
He is a great all around "mountain athlete" though....probably one of the best technical downhill runners (if not the best) ever.
"ooooh, so your opinion is that we should continue to speculate on runners who will never run a race that they maybe, could have, should have won if they trained and entered? Please continue, I do love to read your posts."
Yes, that is what the boards are about. Sorry MUT isn't quite as niche as it used to be, you're gonna have people discussing and speculating. By getting insulted by mere speculation, you're turning away interest from the sport. Unless of course, that is your intention.
I know him personally and was also with him before he left to Switzerland. He accidentally admitted he was tired and I know he had to be since he was at hospital with his child being born just a few days before the race in Europe. Then hopped on a plane and tried to race. He still has the best American time on the course there but on this occasion he was definitely not at his best. He wouldn't mention this on his IG but I figure I would maybe shed some light on the reasons behind the result. So far has had a dominant trail season so expect him to bounce back!
"Are there videos of this? Wondering if any of these races are captured on film. Would love to watch."
Salomon had great live coverage:
chuckle heads wrote:
built for climbing.......... wrote:
Those little tiny spindly legged marathoners running 2:05 wouldn't have a chance in the mountains at a race like UTMB.
Yuki would have a chance though. He is one tough runner!!
Snapped Angles wrote:
Would be funny to watch the "A" class African on a technical rocky descent. Probably snap an ankle in the first 10m
Would be funny if the suburban, white Letsrun posters who make assumptions about tiny spindly legged "A" class Africans realized that most of the Kalenjin and Maasai runners spent their childhood and youth running/playing barefoot, building strong musculoskeletal structure. Additionally, a majority of their local training is done on dirt roads, village walking paths and mountain trails.
Did you think they're just running on asphalt, buffed bike paths and indoor treadmills? Is there any evidence that drives this LRC narrative of fast road/track Africans being "broken" by trail/mountain running???
What they did in their youth has nothing to do with the training they do to run fast marathons. Hiking up 30 degree inclines and running over technical terrain is a completely different endeavor than running 4:50 miles for a couple hours.
Veedeo wrote:
"Are there videos of this? Wondering if any of these races are captured on film. Would love to watch."
Salomon had great live coverage:
https://youtu.be/oXx0jCQniY8
Video was great! What a course! That Swedish recent 2:15 marathoner (2017) & part time mountain runner - Nilssen- ended up 37th. Speed in marathon does not equate to speed in the mountains. He is probably faster than all the runners here in a road marathon.
Jornet is dominating the standings now. What does the winner of the Golden Trail Series receive?
Next up is Pikes Peak. Is Jornet lined up to run that as well? All the top Americans doing this one? King, Canaday, Gray?
Walmsley doesn't do these?
Rob Simpson (who was 2nd I believe) is also a 2:15 marathoner....and of course Jono Wyatt (who still has the CR) was a 2:13 marathoner. There is definitely a correlation with marathon times and finishing times in most trail-mountain races. Sometimes the 2:25 guy beats the 2:15 guy though.... That being said Sierre-Zinal in the MUT realm is considered "very runnable and fast" (despite some of the climbs requiring over 10-min mile splits). No, I don't think Kilian will be coming to Pikes to race this year from what I've heard now so far...for sure more international guys though with the Golden Trail Series.
sweet race wrote:
Video was great! What a course! That Swedish recent 2:15 marathoner (2017) & part time mountain runner - Nilssen- ended up 37th. Speed in marathon does not equate to speed in the mountains. He is probably faster than all the runners here in a road marathon.
Sage, I think you mentioned this at some point on these boards, but I was discussing Pikes Peak with someone very familiar with the trail running scene, and they brought up a interesting point. The trail has degraded over time, naturally slowing down the times, the implication being it would take quite the performance to break Carpenter's Ascent record.
They also suggested rumblings among this year's top entrants about potential current candidates who could get close to taking down the record (not necessarily this year)?
Who though?
Joe ran 2:05 one year?
Walmsley?
Some European guy?
It might be scuttlebutt though, I agree with you that the Ascent record will stand for a long time, baring a freak of nature climb by someone with excellent running economy and altitude endurance ability.
Hey Sage, first of all...like many on these boards I appreciate that you're an active participant in discussions about MUT running as through your experience you bring more credibility to the table than most.
I can't disagree with your statement that "Kilian is for sure beatable"...as he has had races he has entered and didn't win. As a statement of fact, you are correct.
It is also true that he doesn't usually win by a large margin. But if you look at his racing style, this isn't really surprising either. In races like Hardrock he seems to like the company of others before running away. In races like Sierre-Zinal, there are super runnable stretches that don't suit his strengths, so he doesn't run away from the gun. However, looking only at margin of victory as a sign of a runner's relative dominance seems misguided. Kilian wins a lot more often than he loses and most of his losses come after long periods of indulging in mountaineering or ski racing...or just not running (but he usually wins even in those cases as well).
Along the same lines, I don't know there's much value in pointing out he only ran 3:40 at Pikes Peak. Second place was 7 minutes behind (and 4 minutes behind at the top). I'm not saying he could challenge Carpenter's record, but judging someone's winning time when they won by a large margin is not always a good way to judge potential.
I am excited to see what you can do at Pikes Peak this year! It seems like you've put in a lot of specific training to do well, especially from A-Frame to the top, where it really matters! I'll look forward to seeing the top runners stream by me as I head to the top and hope to see you mixing it up with the leaders and put up a good showing in your "home" race.
Just because you are engaging with folks here, and while I respect people's agency to do whatever makes them happiest I will concede that I am one of the MUT fans who gets bummed out when I see you chasing your OTQ. You're a talented runner, your best performances to date seem to be in the 50 mile range and I would love to see what you could do if you chose to be as myopic as a Walmsley (timeliness of this comment is debatable, given what he's said about OTQ). I just hope you don't take it for granted that you can be competitive later in your years in the longer mountain/ultra events as things get more and more competitive. I see a guy like you as being perfect to take a stab at Carpenter's LT100 for instance and hope you don't wait too long to make things like that your focus.
-A fan of yours and of the sport