Can someone PLEASE explain cadence to me

A lot of it depends on how tall you are and/or your inseam length. I'm 5 foot 7 inches with a 33 inch inseam which is above average for my height, but I don't have super long legs by any means and I'm below average in height. I normally run 172-175 on easy runs and well over 180 in tempos and longer races. In fact, during races a mile and under I have recorded cadences over 200. None of this feels "forced" even though 200spm is probably many people with longer legs sprinting cadence. I could definitely see how someone over 6 feet would be in the 160 range. In short: Don't obsess over it. Unless you are a complete beginner (in which case you may need to consciously think about your cadence while running just to get used to that "feeling" of running fast for an extended period of time), your body will find it's best cadence at whatever pace you are running at.

KudzuRunner wrote:

TNE wrote:

Yes it is but just wanted to confirm...

But overall, do you think it is a good idea to try to keep a quicker cadence on normal runs/tempos?

I understand that slow runs are going to be whatever and that everyons cadence is different, but should I still try to increase it?

Yes, overall, it's a good idea to keep a reasonably quick turnover (cadence) even in slower runs. What's your cadence for slow runs right now? Find out the difference between that cadence and 180. Then add half that difference to your current cadence.

In other words, if you're running slow recovery jogs at 160 right now, pick up your cadence to 170 and shorten your stride. That will be more efficient than what you're doing now.

Horrible advise.

Don’t shorten strides, and don’t change your cadence. The ideal cadence for each speed is the one you feel most relaxed and comfortable at, not 180 or any other mumbo jumbo. Search for elites easy running clips- you will see they run below 170, sometimes around 160. Your mission isn’t to run with the right cadence, but to run relaxed and comfortable at each speed you choose to run. Run 180 at 6 miles per hour- you would feel everything besides comfortable

Watch videos of races on YouTube and count the steps of elite runners per minute per event. The following is an average value per event. There will be some variance due to height and stride length. However, a rough ball-park figure goes like this:

100m - 135 right foot steps/minute

400m - 105+

800m - 99-100+

1500 - 97-99+

3000 m to 10,000m 94-97+ depending on pace

marathon - 90-94+ depending again on pace and height of the athlete

Your cadence depends on your height/leg length, thus there is no ideal cadence, barring how you run naturally.

I feel bad for young people. They can "learn" about all this stuff online instead of from actual real life. They laern about sex, relationships, running from things they read on the internet and it fills their heads with junk.

Why is a 17 year old runner worried about cadence? Shouldn't you be concerned with what kind of car you have, the college you want to go to or just whether that chick in Math likes you?

Good grief, the world is doomed....

>> A lot of it depends on how tall you are and/or your inseam length. I'm 5 foot 7 inches with a 33 inch inseam [...]

With all due respect, I think what you're writing here - with stride length tied to inseam/leg length - is probably perfectly descriptive of racewalking: racewalkers are supposed to always have one foot on the ground, so the length ahead the other leg can go is inseam- and flexibility-limited (okay, racewalkers actually often momentarily have both feet off the ground if you watch slow-motion video, but they have to minimize this so it is not visible to a judge in real time).

But running is entirely different; the power with which your back leg propels you through the air is a large component of stride length. Watch Haile G., who is a rather tiny guy (5'5"), going a huge distance per stride in a race (without overstriding -- he is not landing with his foot stretched in front of his center of gravity, but rather traveling a lot of distance when both feet are off the ground). You can sometimes see him matching strides in race videos with someone like the long-legged Paul Tergat (who is 6'0).

Although it's not surprising that top runners have both fast cadence and long stride length at race speed (it is the combination that allows them to go fast), two things that seem interesting to me: 1) training on a track with an excellent Kenyan runner, I noticed that, even on his not-so-fast recovery laps, his cadence was still very high -- he was extremely light on his feet, and the obvious difference when he went faster (running an interval) was his longer stride length, but his cadence *stayed* high at all speeds I saw; 2) is the high cadence of top runners a neurophysiological genetically-controlled thing, or can the rest of us not only train ourselves to constantly run with similarly high cadence but also benefit from this?

your form is bad because you have muscle imbalances. Begin lifting heavy and doing core work and your form will fix itself. 180 cadence is a bs lie that has been debunked many, many, many, many times. Bekele runs his easy runs at mid 160 cadence.

TNE wrote:

.... since I've always had TERRIBLE form (head bobbing, ankle rolls out, arms out of control, etc), I was looking at how to improve form or at least be more efficient.

.... (cut a lot of stuff).... ........ Sorry for all the quetions, but I'm trying to increase cadence and it makes no sense to me.

You're focusing on the wrong thing. You want to get faster (and reduce the risk of injuries). It sounds like what you want to do is improve your form. Cadence can be increased slightly, especially in the 800, but it's a secondary concern.

Explain what you mean by head bobbing, ankle rolling out, arms out of control, and whatever you're referring to as "etc." and we can give you advice. For example...

If your head is bobbing up and down at race pace, then you're overstriding. If you're bouncing up and down at slow paces, it's less of a concern.

What are your arms doing? Explain and we can help you.

My head bobs up and down at slower paces according to people, but I cant really explain because I don't see it.

as for my arms, they tend to cross my body when I run. My arms also get tired really easy, and my right arm always feels like it needs to stretch. As weird as this sounds, when im running slow or even fast sometimes, I extend my right arm all the way back to my side as if im stretching it. I also sometimes let my arms rest at my sides and stop swinging them when im really tired.

My right foot also tends to underpronate or supinate I think its called. the foot will land with the sole facing inward, and the ankle part facing outward. My right leg also sometimes seems to invade my left legs path sometimes and they collide.

all the problems are on my left side. overall I just have a really out of control form thats pretty ugly to watch.

Gfhhf wrote:

Been through this million times. 180 cadence is a bad myth. Don’t interfere with your cadence. Low speed- low cadence low strides. High speed- higher cadence and bigger strides. Check out the elites at different speeds

I'm of the complete opposite belief.

Your cadence is too low, as you already know. You have increased it and seen good results in training. It should help you run more miles faster, and with less injury risk. 180 isn't a magic number, but 150 is too low. 170 was a good training cadence for me as a long legged 6' tall male. Geb was much higher, he's also like 5'2".

Don't forget to do strides to open up and work on cadence and rhythm at higher speeds.

Finally, focus on moving your arms quicker, your legs will follow suit. It's much easier than just trying to take faster steps.

Best of luck in the upcoming season.

Let's look at one at a time.

Arms Cross Body: Drill: Stand with your left wrist down, roughly at belt or pocket level. This arm will be immobile. It helps to rest the wrist against your side a little. Now, run swinging only your right arm. You will find it's almost impossible for your arm to cross your body while doing this. Run easily swinging only your right arm for 20 seconds. Then, alternate your arms holding the right arm immobile and swinging only the left arm for 20 seconds. Recover running normally for a minute or so. Then, repeat 3-4 times. You might be a little sore the next day.

Over the next few weeks, gradually increase the time and number of reps. Your goal is to get to where you can run this way while swinging both arms.

One foot supinates: This isn't necessarily a problem. My right foot supinates a little before impact.

One leg hits the other: This is harder to explain, but it can be a shoe issue or a juvenile growth issue. Try different shoes.

Arms get tired really easily: You need to do some upper body weight lifting (and core work). Lots of disagreement on how to best do this, i.e. low weight high reps or heavy weight low reps. The bottom line is either approach will get you stronger than you are now. I do both approaches. As your arms, core, and shoulders get stronger, your arms won't get tired so easily.

Head bobs up and down at slower paces: This is not an issue unless you are overstriding. At faster paces, the vertical energy will translate into more forward momentum and less bouncing. (Technically, this isn't what happens, but for the sake of easy explanation, let's just go with this.)

i think worrying about cadence is waste of time. it was mostly brought about by Triathletes . where 2 of the 3 sports (swimming and biking) require a greater emphasis on technique and form. swimming is almost all tech. and biking form can greatly reduce wind resistance. anyway, the focus on cadence being the same at all speeds basically means that the most form efficient way to increase speed is though stride length rather than stride frequency. but the reality is, both come into play.

This is good information. One reason you are not able to run at faster cadence now is that you cannot speed up cadence a lot with your arms swinging across your body. Severe arm crossover runners are actually twisting their upper torso as part of their arms wing. Thus, their cadence is limited by how fast they can twist their torso.

Do the one arm swing drill until you can straighten out your arm swing. Then, it will be easier to increase your cadence. Changing cadence will be awkward at first since your body has adapted to your current slow cadence. That is, you are more efficient at your current cadence than you are at 5-10 steps per minute faster. Over a few weeks, your body will adapt to become more efficient at the faster cadence.

This is one reason why many studies show mixed results on increasing cadence. It takes many weeks and drills to become efficient at a faster cadence. Plus, "faster" is a relative term for everyone. Once you fix your arm swing, you'll find that as you increase cadence you will eventually reach a "sweet spot" where faster cadence becomes FAR harder than only a few steps per minute slower. You'll need to stay at or below the sweet spot until your final kick.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Coffee Grind wrote:

This is GREAT way to get injured. Good advice, moran.

Not considering that I know people who have cured injuries by running on a grassy field barefoot.

anecdotal nonsense.

Cadence and stride length are the product of speed. Many take it the other way, that speed is a product of cadence- that’s why they look like penguins when they run.

Gfhhf wrote:

Been through this million times. 180 cadence is a bad myth. Don’t interfere with your cadence. Low speed- low cadence low strides. High speed- higher cadence and bigger strides. Check out the elites at different speeds

+1

TNE wrote:

ANYWAY, here is my question. I seriously don't get cadence. How can I run at the ideal cadence (180) at all paces. Isn't increased cadence what makes you run faster? When im doing slow runs, shouldnt my cadence be lower than when I'm running an 800? My tempos are usually at about 165 cadence, slow runs at 160. My 800 though is at like 185 cadence....

Just so my previous posts don't confuse you, let me address this paragraph.

As others have pointed out, 180 is NOT the perfect cadence. Cadence varies by individual, by the pace of your run, and by the distance you are racing.

That said, you probably should work on getting your slow and tempo cadence about 5 beats faster. (See my posts on arm swing to help get your cadence faster.)

If there's no such thing as ideal cadence, why should you try to increase cadence? It's a good question. The reason, in your situation, is that the difference between your tempo cadence and your 800m cadence is so big that just the increase in cadence itself is going to tire you out prematurely! unless you train your body to handle the faster cadence. I've done this and it helped me reach world ranking in the 800 in my age group. The faster cadence makes me less efficient at slow paces and I bounce a little. That's okay because I'm training my muscles to fire faster and hold that faster cadence when it matters in a race.

As I said earlier, this is why many cadence studies are flawed. It takes several weeks or even months to adapt to running at faster cadence.

When I first started working to increase my cadence, I would run at a faster cadence for 20-30 seconds on my recovery runs, recover by running normally for a couple of minutes, and do another cadence rep. I would NOT speed up. I would simply shorten my stride, land more on my forefoot, and maintain the same speed. Gradually, I increased the length of time running with the faster cadence.

Mumbo jumbo

Cadence AND stride length are product of the speed you run. All those talking about messing with cadence, why aren’t you talking about artificially lengthening you stride length? I’ll give you a quick answer- because you’re stupid. Your target is to run faster- that is achieved not by changing cadence or stride length, BUT by getting more shape! And then cadence and stride length would change too because they are a PRODUCT!!

All this cadence talk started because this Daniels made a false assumption that elite runners use the same high cadence at all paces- easy run, intervals, race pace- and that they only change their stride because they are used to the cadence rhythm. Nice argument but completely wrong as we see in endless YouTube clips of elites running at different paces. So please focus on running faster, not on playing with you cadence.

You need to stop analyzing your cadence.

It's fun for empirical evidence to study other runners and to learn the science of the sport.

But you need to simply worry about your fitness.

Your cadence is whatever comes naturally to you.

You will be able to maintain longer stride length as you get more fit.

But do not think about your stride length either.

Do worry about any running motion that is not efficient - crossing your arm swing, having your foot strike all over the place, etc.

Do your hard runs hard and your easy runs easy.

Increase your base gradually.

These things will then affect your cadence and stride length.