If I were to use Daniels calculator what would VO2Max pace be? Interval or Repetition? I also think the prescribed pacing for me at shorter efforts with Daniels tended to be race effort or faster.
If I were to use Daniels calculator what would VO2Max pace be? Interval or Repetition? I also think the prescribed pacing for me at shorter efforts with Daniels tended to be race effort or faster.
Hi Pappy. His calculator over at runsmartproject.com says that I pace is the equivalent of VO2 max pace. R pace is faster. So maybe around mile race pace?
outsiderunner wrote:
We have a July 4th 5k here, and I usually run it.
What I still regard as my best-ever race was a Fourth-of-July 10K. I bettered much superior runners on that hot and humid afternoon. The second half had some challenging hills, and after a conservative start, I caught all but one of the early leaders.
I came across the results the other day. I ran 34:27, and, amazingly, I see that two of the local standouts I caught actually faded to 35:13 and 36:30! Really demonstrates how challenging the conditions were. These guys were normally sub-32 for 10K.
I was very disoriented for a long while after the race. Confused and dazed. Probably was flirting with heat stroke. This was a few years before I flirted with death from heat stroke after a 10K.
Allen - You da man! You are the beast of this thread.
One other thing...how you could struggle with five miles at 6:35 in training and then run 6:26 in a 15k race boggles my mind...just the way it must boggle yours that I could run 36:38 in training, with no problem, and then run only 36:27 in a race a week and a half later.
We are leading parallel/opposite existences. If both of us suddenly passed away, the world might cease to exist.
Pappy, Daniels uses I for a vo2mac pace equivalent.
R pace is running economy oriented.
T pace is Lactate Threshold pace oriented.
As I know you know, I pace is actually a little shifty in the Daniels scheme. He uses 10-12 minute race pace sometimes, and talks about both 3k and 5k pace at others. And if you use his VDOT calculator it arrives somewhere closer to 5k pace for many (and about exactly at 5k pace for me despite being a 15.5-16 minute 5k runner).
I've always just used 5k pace, but have allowed my faster women to get after it a little when feeling groggy as for a 17-20 minute 5k runner vo2max pace tends to be a touch faster than 5k pace.
To Allen's point, sometimes goal 5k pace fits nicely.
Great discussion today.
Thank you. I'm not sure why I never seen that before. I've had the app on my phone for years. I guess some of my opinion changes then about Daniels.
My freshman year of college was just a very bad decision. Crappy school and poor coaching. The coach a "Daniels guy"had me do 6*400 under 64. My PR was 60. I told him it'd be to hard. This was at the beginning of the season. It took me 8 times to get 6 under 64. Ran like crap every race but one after it.
I still talk to the coach. One of the last times I talked to him he actually bragged about doing this to others and how it was good. I just said well if your having them do repeats that close to their PR they were racing. Not only was the workout stupid but it probably ruined all their progression following it.
All I got was a dumbfounded look.
Yeah, I could see that. Lots of coaches ruin the runners they coach. They do not know your body the way you do, and so, in effect, lots of their recommendations are just guesses.
Smoove wrote:
Great discussion today.
I agree.
After diving into that Lydiard/Daniels thread, I bought the Kindle version of Running to the Top (I already have DRF) and have been browsing. The back and forth here has opened my eyes to details about training that I hadn't ever thought about before.
I think I am the definition of "coachable." Every time I read something that sounds plausible, I'm all on fire to go out and do it! As I mentioned before, I'll need to be making a decision about how to train for Boston 2019...or more precisely...how to structure the next 11 months of my development. Though for now I'm committed to building a stronger base, eventually, I'm gonna have to choose at least a general approach. I plan on coming into September in the best aerobic shape of my life, prepared to run higher mileage than ever before. How to structure that mileage will remain an open question until a decision has to be made... essentially until I have to "choose a coach."
So far, the general plan is simple:
-Maybe a few "fun" races during the summer. Mostly just stick to my planned Hadd progression and build mileage up to around 70mi (yikes) per week by November.
-10k in September
-Half Marathon in early October to see where I'm at.
-Half marathon in early/mid December to see where I'm at... this will help me in establishing goals and paces for the final 16 weeks prior to Boston.
If anyone sees a problem in that general outline, I'd appreciate your input at any point.
Coach Jeff - I like what too hot has suggested in regard to my training. Go Lydiard for the bulk of the year, and then do eight weeks of sharpening prior to a goal race. If I do anything other than what I do now, which is running by feel at a good clip and “getting in what I can” (as Lydiard would say) every day, that would be it. I have been considering asking too hot what, specifically, he means in regard to sharpening, but I gather that for a marathon goal race, it would me mainly some type of LT interval work.
In the final analysis, you know your body and you should be able to make a good judgment. Over and above everytning else: get in those miles, and bang out those long runs. I will avail myself of Lydiard again by noting how he said he wanted to “make a marathoner out of everyone.” That is a great approach. I did not get 35:xx this past weeknd, but think about it...I ran 36:27 without having done a single interval in nearly a year (and not very many at all in the prior year), and without any typical workout sessions or structure. It was all by miles and feel...and love. So, high-end aerobic/marathon-type training will make you faster at all distances, which seems to be Lydiard’s main point.
Happy running to you...
consistency wrote:
Does Lydiard have his marathoners do the hard track/VO2 type stuff at the end of a build up? Or did they just race at the end of the marathon section of his build ups?
The last 10 weeks or so of a Lydiard marathon build-up would include a lot of time trials (5K and 10K) and sprint/float workouts on the track. Things like 20 x 400m at quarter effort to create relaxation at faster speeds. These get faster and fewer in number as the weeks go by. There are some hard 30K runs in there too.
This is great. I am very much like you coach jeff in which I am not sure which coach to choose. Last cycle I followed Daniels which I enjoyed a lot. His T paced runs where my favorite, whether it was a straight 20 min or cruise intervals. But with me being so new to running I want to explore different styles. As of now canova intrigues me the most, but I have yet to make a decision.
Too hot, how do you view the 1/4, 1/2 3/4, and 7/8 efforts then? I always thought in the last 10 weeks the 400s would be around 3/4-7/8ths effort.
As far as linear/nonlinear, I have always found the terms misleading. I think of Lydiard as linear because there are defined steps to the method. 1,2,3,4. I always have thought training like Daniels to be nonlinear because he will mix together parts of the steps. I could see calling Daniels approach linear too because even though some steps are mixed together, there are very defined sections.
Then, there is also a funneling type approach. Funneling is linear and nonlinear also but really trys attacking goals from the top down and from the bottom up.
All the different approaches, well all good ones have almost all the same principals. The differences are just in the methods of application.
Coach - your race schedule is similar to mine. 5k August. 10k September. (Some other 5ks in there as well) HM October as long workout and experience. Same in November. Houston in Jan.
Similar to what I did in 2017. Good luck with whatever approach you take!
Oh and running the first of my local series races a 2mjlr in first fri in June. Won’t be in shape but be a good fitness test.
Hi All,
Was posting here back in January / February in anticipation of a marathon this past Saturday, then got hurt, and stopped. Recovered well enough to train a few weeks and adjusted my goal from 3:00 to 3:15, or just finish.
I've checked back the past couple weeks and seen some great race reports. You'll are an impressive group.
M - 8.5 - 2 up, alternating miles at MP then HMP - 715, 650, 713, 645, 2.5 down
T - 3.5 REALLY easy
W - 5.5 easy
Th - 3 easy with strides
F - off
Sa - 26.2 - 3:31:xx
Su - off
Had a similar race to Bdubs. 60 and sunny at the gun, and warmed to 76 degrees by the time I crossed the finish line. My body isn't adapted to the heat, and I did a poor job executing. Felt good at the half, right at 1:40:00. Imploded after 19, and getting to the finish line became a negotiation. Not having a PR or any carrot to chase, I let the fatigue get to me was soft mentally.
Pace was a little slower than I would have liked from the get-go, but I didn't want to push in the first half. I've run negative splits in the past and will again. Unfortunately, even though I was stopping at every water station, was getting cotton mouth by mile 10. Not a good sign.
It was a good learning experience. I'll never be disappointed in myself after completing a marathon. Felt like I was drinking enough, but clearly wasn't. The post race photos show my form as all over the place the last few miles. That will be a focus for my next cycle.
Will be taking the rest of this week off before hitting some easy miles for the next 6 weeks before launching into a program for the Grand Rapids Marathon in late October. Will be doing some supplemental work - squats, kettle bell tosses, etc, in the meantime with the aim of shoring up form for the entire run and limiting ground contact time.
Question for the group - does any of do / know of exercises that help with limiting ground contact time? It's obviously a limiting factor and something I'd like to improve upon.
RunGuy Midwest wrote:
Question for the group - does any of do / know of exercises that help with limiting ground contact time? It's obviously a limiting factor and something I'd like to improve upon.
When I worked on converting from heel-striking to mid-foot landing, minimizing ground contact time was one of the goals. Last week I posted a photo of me heel-striking way out ahead of my center of gravity. By the time my body moved over that lead foot, and I followed through with a back kick, I was planted on the ground for a LONG while.
So my drills included exaggerated knee lift and back kick. The knee lift forced me to land OVER my center of gravity, and the high back kick forced me to pop quickly off the ground. The resulting high cadence feels unnatural and a little silly, but repeatedly doing 50m drills, and a more relaxed version for easy runs, eventually and effectively changed my form. But I still focus on the knee-lift and back-kick when I am tired and my form is deteriorating.
Congrats on finishing the marathon in challenging conditions. Things will go much better this October.
By "back kick," I mean more like trying to kick yourself in the butt. A high back kick, not leaving the trailing leg low and lagging behind if that makes sense.
Allen1959 wrote:
[quote]RunGuy Midwest wrote:
So my drills included exaggerated knee lift and back kick. The knee lift forced me to land OVER my center of gravity, and the high back kick forced me to pop quickly off the ground. The resulting high cadence feels unnatural and a little silly, but repeatedly doing 50m drills, and a more relaxed version for easy runs, eventually and effectively changed my form. But I still focus on the knee-lift and back-kick when I am tired and my form is deteriorating.
I find this interesting because I find it counterintuitive. Exaggerating knee lift and back kick seems to me to be an approach that would result in a very long and loping stride (exactly like mine, in fact, as I have high knee lift and a long back kick), which would seem to me to result in a reduction in cadence (thus my 160-164 strides per minute on easy days (176-180 on workout or race days).
How is it that lengthening your stride by way of greater knee lift and longer back kick results in a higher cadence?
There are a one or more of interviews with Jay Dicharry and he talks about a time where there was an attempt to improve runner performance by limiting ground contact time. He went on to say that they all got injured in the process. Just keep that in mind and don't try to modify ground contact time directly. If you improve ground contact time as a result of doing something else then great. Gordon is reading or has read Jay's book and might be able to provide better insight.
Personally, I try to keep up with the core and hip work to avoid injury. Maybe work on that and check your posture. Other than wanting to reduce ground contact time, do you think you have any notable problems in your running form?
Smoove wrote:
How is it that lengthening your stride by way of greater knee lift and longer back kick results in a higher cadence?
It's a shortened stride for the drills. Closer to running in place. Or like the quick tire drills that football players do. High knee lift, and try to kick yourself in the butt. High cadence and shorter stride.
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
I’m a D2 female runner. Our coach explicitly told us not to visit LetsRun forums.
Guys between age of 45 and 55 do you think about death or does it seem far away
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
adizero Road to Records with Yomif Kejelcha, Agnes Ngetich, Hobbs Kessler & many more is Saturday