Honest question from a writer/very informal runner about human potential for a mile

SlowDad wrote:

I'm a 36-year-old hobby jogger, 6'2" and 175 lbs. I run about 30 mpw, including an interval session 1x per week.

About five years ago, I set the following goals: sub-60 400m, sub-5:00 mile, and sub-40:00 10k (not sure how equivalent these times are). I accomplished #1 and #3, but despite running a bunch of road and track miles the fastest time I posted was 5:09.

I'd be very impressed if you break 5:15, let alone 5:00, after six months of training. But go for it, and keep updating the thread!

That is interesting and great to get that kind of thing to compare to, thanks for sharing. Breaking 5 I'm sure is incredibly hard, I may have come across as overly confident, but I do really understand that doing that is very tough.

Moo Goo wrote:

Try breaking 6 first

You are absolutely right

Thanks for checking up on this, I'm filled with all sorts of ideas, I suppose it's time to actually start doing some timing. Still a ton of snow up here, but I will keep posting as I get started. Sounds like you had quite serious commitment to improving speed, so it's very interesting to read.

What sort of 'Modern training" do you hope to build up to in 6 months?

Modern training is essentially more training and harder training. There is no magic trick that will transcend basic ability. Except drugs.

While you're comparing, note that SlowDad has a BMI of ~22.5 while you, at 5'11" and 180, register a BMI of ~25.1 . You would have to lose ~19 pounds to get to the same BMI. Obviously these are just tables and they can't determine what, exactly, is someone's ideal weight to be a miler. But in addition to adapting to any or all modern training methods you're willing to try, you've got to lose about twenty pounds to expect to be at your best. At 34 you're not past it, but the weight will come off more slowly for you than it would for someone younger. What's your diet currently like? You're running up to 15 miles at a time but you're currently overweight, which could indicate a significant barrier for you. Even if you cross train and eat a healthful diet you may not be able to shed those excess pounds.

Mr_Want_Speed wrote:

SlowDad wrote:

I'm a 36-year-old hobby jogger, 6'2" and 175 lbs. I run about 30 mpw, including an interval session 1x per week.

About five years ago, I set the following goals: sub-60 400m, sub-5:00 mile, and sub-40:00 10k (not sure how equivalent these times are). I accomplished #1 and #3, but despite running a bunch of road and track miles the fastest time I posted was 5:09.

I'd be very impressed if you break 5:15, let alone 5:00, after six months of training. But go for it, and keep updating the thread!

That is interesting and great to get that kind of thing to compare to, thanks for sharing. Breaking 5 I'm sure is incredibly hard, I may have come across as overly confident, but I do really understand that doing that is very tough.

Lucky to break 5:30 wrote:

What sort of 'Modern training" do you hope to build up to in 6 months?

Modern training is essentially more training and harder training. There is no magic trick that will transcend basic ability. Except drugs.

Correct apart from the drugs bit, that's where the sport gets silly and people believe in foolish pseudoscience.

Mr_Want_Speed wrote:

SlowDad wrote:

I'm a 36-year-old hobby jogger, 6'2" and 175 lbs. I run about 30 mpw, including an interval session 1x per week.

About five years ago, I set the following goals: sub-60 400m, sub-5:00 mile, and sub-40:00 10k (not sure how equivalent these times are). I accomplished #1 and #3, but despite running a bunch of road and track miles the fastest time I posted was 5:09.

I'd be very impressed if you break 5:15, let alone 5:00, after six months of training. But go for it, and keep updating the thread!

That is interesting and great to get that kind of thing to compare to, thanks for sharing. Breaking 5 I'm sure is incredibly hard, I may have come across as overly confident, but I do really understand that doing that is very tough.

Breaking 5 isn't so much hard (all races are hard) as challenging in such a short time space.

You're not overly confident because you have to have that confidence to achieve anything above the normal level. Training smart is the answer, because a steady progression is feasible with the right training and impossible without it.

I was roughly in your shape at your age and ran 5:20 when trying to break 5:00, but I knew very little about training back then. Here are my thoughts.

1. Trails are great for your easy miles, but they won't make you faster. You're training your muscles for up and down hills and uneven terrain, none of which you will find on a track.

2. Consider the Nick Willis Miler Method boot camp. I did it last summer and almost all of the participants set PRs in 6 weeks. Of course, 6 weeks is too short, but you'll learn some training tips and get to interact with Nick by Facebook, which is pretty cool. I did not PR, but I was a long sprinter moving up to the mile and the boot camp is geared to marathoners moving down to the mile. Nick adjusted my tempo workouts after the camp was over and I set an age group mile PR a few weeks later. I also confirmed what I already knew. I have no talent for the mile.

3. Consider the Billat 30/30 workout to build your VO2Max. It's 30 seconds at mile race pace followed by a 30-second jog at 1/2 that speed. To make it work for you on a track so you have marks to hit, you might start with 40 seconds for 200m (a 5:20 mile pace). You'd run 200m in 40, jog to the next 100m mark in 40, and repeat until you could no longer hit your marks. Your goal is NOT speed, a common mistake, but volume. You want to work up to 24 reps. If you can't do more than 3-4 at first, slow the pace to 42 seconds on, 42 seconds jog (a 5:36 pace) or 45 seconds (a 6:00 pace). Once you can do 24 reps at 40, drop the time down a couple of seconds.

The benefit of the Billat workout is that you get the benefits of a tempo while training your body to run efficiently at mile race pace.

fisky wrote:

The benefit of the Billat workout is that you get the benefits of a tempo while training your body to run efficiently at mile race pace.

Right. It's not going to do jack for his VO2 max which is a natural function of a healthy oxygen transport system. But if only physiologists could understand this, and how VO2 max tests are unreliable, then they might get somewhere in understanding efficiency and how it allows enormous improvements to be made in performance?

Hey OP,

If this is for something you're planning to write and have published, then it might be useful to talk a little more about the hook/angle/storyline side of things, as well as the audience/market side of things. What would make for an entertaining read, and for whom?

I seem to remember that Runner's World did an "Everyman trains for the mile" feature within the last few years. It might be worth taking a look at that and thinking about how you can differentiate yourself within that genre.

One possibility that suggests itself is the "Paper Lion" approach (referring to the George Plimpton classic). See if you can get yourself "embedded" with a high-level training group (not even necessarily elite, a good college program might do) and go along for the ride.

Another approach might be the "Julie and Julia" model: in your case, try to recreate the "recipe" of a great miler from the past. Bannister would be the obvious choice here, I think, not only because he's well-known and timely (having recently passed away), but because his training is comparatively doable for a non-elite athlete working in a compressed time frame.

Along similar lines, you could attempt a reenactment of the history of mile training: start with, say, a month training like the 19th century "pedestrians", then a month of Finnish-style fartlek training, then a month of mid century-style intervals, then a month of Lydiard-style endurance training, and so on... This would be kind of inherently silly, and more time on each style would be better (maybe two months over the course of a year), but it might make for a cool piece/book.

Or you could set it up as a challenge: round up a couple of friends of more or less similar ability and convince each of them to train (or try to train) in a particular style over a set period of time, say three months, then see who runs fastest/improves the most. I could see this being entertaining.

Just a few thoughts, hope they're useful.

yeah but no wrote:

Lucky to break 5:30 wrote:

What sort of 'Modern training" do you hope to build up to in 6 months?

Modern training is essentially more training and harder training. There is no magic trick that will transcend basic ability. Except drugs.

Correct apart from the drugs bit, that's where the sport gets silly and people believe in foolish pseudoscience.

Real Science, Jon. That's just how it is.

yeah but no wrote:

fisky wrote:

The benefit of the Billat workout is that you get the benefits of a tempo while training your body to run efficiently at mile race pace.

Right. It's not going to do jack for his VO2 max which is a natural function of a healthy oxygen transport system. But if only physiologists could understand this, and how VO2 max tests are unreliable, then they might get somewhere in understanding efficiency and how it allows enormous improvements to be made in performance?

Ooooh, back with your double nonsense. Finally got your tail out from between your legs after the last thrashing?

Well that's a great question that I'm still working on. I think some of my ideas would just be ridiculed on this site, whether with merit or not, but it mostly comes down to convincing my brain that I'm capable of what I set out to and reach new milestones, even at my current age/shape. Perhaps 'modern training' isn't the correct term since that is nothing revolutionary, but it's new for me, and an exciting avenue to explore.

And as I'm thrilled this post has received some attention and lots of responses, I should mention I absolutely will not be taking any drugs, or going that route of the human guinea pig. Unless caffeine makes the banned list, I don't think taking PED's would impress anyone. Cheers

I could certainly shed some pounds, and maybe have a bit of mid-30's paunch, but I don't think I'm overweight, even tho the BMI is what it is. By BMI standards, I'm the same as Russell Westbrook. I eat well, if not perfect. Diet is trying to eat all real food, and lots of veggies, not a very strict plan, sometimes overeat for sure. Again, I'm fully admitting I could use improvement. Im all ears to recommendations in the diet category. Thanks

fisky wrote:

I was roughly in your shape at your age and ran 5:20 when trying to break 5:00.

Hello, and thanks much for these thoughts. Again, I've never trained on a track so some of these workout ideas/suggestions are really interesting and helpful to me. Appreciate you taking the time to write! So is the Nick Willis boot camp all done online? That could be really beneficial. I bought the Jack Daniels book, and am looking at how to use my time most efficiently.

Ditto for the Billat 30/30 workout.

Also, I'm curious what you feel kept you from breaking 5? Did you think it simply wasn't possible for you, or if you had X or Y at your disposal, or more time in the day, or more motivation, do you think that could have gotten you to that goal? Cheers,

going faster miles an hour wrote:

Hey OP,

If this is for something you're planning to write and have published, then it might be useful to talk a little more about the hook/angle/storyline side of things, as well as the audience/market side of things. What would make for an entertaining read, and for whom?

Just a few thoughts, hope they're useful.

Hi there,

This is all super helpful and useful. I really like the idea of the training program being the essence of the story. At this point if I go full bore with this, I would start June 1, which is right around the corner, and I have been running already for a couple months, 4-6 days a week, among other exercise, namely snowboarding.

To be sure, I haven't figured out a precise hook, and your thoughts trigger many ideas. I just read Bannisters book about the four minute mile, and really enjoyed his approach to training, and was rather mindblown that for many months he wouldn't train any more than 30 minutes during his lunch break.

I love the idea of different training styles and switching them up. I had thought of starting with ancient greek techniques (whatever that may mean, but I'm sure there are resources), and working up to utilizing GPS watches, visualization, sports psychology and the like, essentially going from very old to modern. But my issue was that I'd wonder how they would mesh with each other, and if they would build on one another, or if they would detract from the end goal.

The Jack Daniels running formula has a 24-week program (my ideal timeframe) so I had thought of taking his well-respected (as I understand it) methodology, and adding my own twists and techniques from within that framework. I like the idea of humor with a background of hard-grinding training, the more I look into it, the more obstacles I have to accomplishing anything worth reading about, but perhaps that is all part of the fun.

If you happen to know when that Runner's world article came out, I'd love to read. I looked over their site, but couldn't seem to figure it out. Thank you!

No PED's, no illegal drugs. That seems it would defeat the purpose.

Mr_Want_Speed wrote:

I could certainly shed some pounds, and maybe have a bit of mid-30's paunch, but I don't think I'm overweight, even tho the BMI is what it is. By BMI standards, I'm the same as Russell Westbrook. I eat well, if not perfect. Diet is trying to eat all real food, and lots of veggies, not a very strict plan, sometimes overeat for sure. Again, I'm fully admitting I could use improvement. Im all ears to recommendations in the diet category. Thanks

Russell Westbrook is probably 5 percent body fat with abnormally long legs and arms. You sound close to 20 percent body fat. Even by NBA standards he is a specimen. Comparing your BMI to an elite NBA athlete is ridiculous.

Go get a dunk test to establish your body fat. Reminds me of a friend who asked me how much weight to drop to look good for pool season. I said at least 15 and he shot back that he’s the same height and weight as an NFL cornerback. I told him no one is going to mistake you for an NFL cornerback in your current or future condition. So weight loss/body transformation could be part of your story too.

Are you update, Mr_Want_Speed? How are things going?