I've got a sophomore kid who has never run track before. He came out for the team after playing soccer in the winter. When he first came out, he wanted to run with the distance group.
After one day, the distance coach told me, "this kid looks like a legit sprinter". So taught him a relay handoff and put him on the 3rd leg of a 4x1, where he proceeded to bring our team from back of the pack up to first in our season opening invite. We won our heat and were second overall in that meet. The next week, we moved him to anchor on the varsity 4x1, where he ran down a few guys at another medium size invitational.
He told me that he still wanted to run with the distance group so he could get in shape for next soccer season. He runs on his heels like a noob distance kid, but he is really fast.
At another meet, we tried him in an 800, as an experiment. It didn't go too well, he ended up in 2:22 ish. He's run an open 400 in 57 ish and a couple of relay splits in 55.
We've had him doing sprint mechanics work with the sprint group to try and get a more efficient, powerful stride on him, but he's been still going off and doing the bulk of his workouts with the MD group.
Yesterday was our first day of spring break. Our distance and MD kids worked out with the distance coach in the morning and I had the sprint group in the afternoon. The kid in went to the distance workout in the morning and did 2 x 600 @ 1:55 avg then 4 x 300 @ 49-51. Then he showed up in the afternoon for the sprinter workout as well. I didn't really want him to run, because he had already gone in the morning, but he assured me he felt good.
The sprint group workout was surprisingly similar to the MD workout for the day (2 x 500 @ 80% 400 speed + 2 x 300 @ 90% 400 speed). I told the kid to just run relaxed with the back end of the group (kids that run around 59-60 for the 400). Here were his times for the workout.
500 @ 91 ran with the group. 3 min rest
500 @ 83 decided group was too slow for him about 100m into rep. 6 min rest
300 @ 47 - 6 min rest
300 @ 46
All reps were on a section of our cross country course (we are in the process of having a new track built, so we are homeless for the season) and he was in trainers for both workouts.
The kid never looked pressed and he was never even really winded at the end of any reps. I'm thinking this guy should just be able to go out and pop a 52-53 for the open 400 and also easily go sub 2:10 in the 800, eventually going low 2:00 range for the season. We don't have an open 100 time for him yet, but he's been killing the 4 x 1 each time he gets the stick.
What am I missing here?
Kid passes the eyeball test, hasn't put up great times yet.
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I should probably add that the MD group has been mostly in base phase still. They have not yet really started to get into any speed endurance type of stuff. They've been doing a lot of fartlek on the roads with segments of 2-4 minutes and their faster stuff has mostly been at mile date pace so far. I suppose this would explain why he has pretty good endurance and pretty good speed, but hasn't yet run a great 400 or 800.
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There is no such thing as the eyeball test when it comes to running. Why are you having a kid who can only run the 400 in 57 train with the sprinters? That is not even enough speed to put him in the 1600. You should be training someone that slow for the 3200, not the 4 and 8.
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Well, every time he sprints in a relay, he beats people, as in blows by them. But, in his open 400 debut, he ran 57 something. The two times he's run a 4x4, he's split a 55.x. That time is still slower than it seems is possible based on what I've seen in practice and on 4x1s
Hence the thread. -
You need to get him into an open 100 and an open 200 to see what he runs. Maybe he really is a sprinter. A few years ago we had a soccer guy who we were going to make a mid distance 400/800 runner. Well, he eventually runs an open 100 and runs low 11. He ended up going under 10.50 FAT and mid 21 for 200m and was a 2 time state champion (once in each event.)
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stanley allen taylor wrote:
You need to get him into an open 100 and an open 200 to see what he runs. Maybe he really is a sprinter. A few years ago we had a soccer guy who we were going to make a mid distance 400/800 runner. Well, he eventually runs an open 100 and runs low 11. He ended up going under 10.50 FAT and mid 21 for 200m and was a 2 time state champion (once in each event.)
Agreed on the open 100 and 200.
Like you, we originally thought he would be a 400/800 guy, then he showed good speed on the 4x1. He's got no start technique now so his 100 might be a little slow relative to our top 100 guy. I think his 200 will be great. But that double workout yesterday showed he's got plenty of stamina as well, hence my surprise by his lack of truly fast performances so far. -
have you tried him on any jumps?
I agree with the open 100m and 200m idea, but I would also have him do some long jumps.
cheers. -
Seriously why wrote:
There is no such thing as the eyeball test when it comes to running. Why are you having a kid who can only run the 400 in 57 train with the sprinters? That is not even enough speed to put him in the 1600. You should be training someone that slow for the 3200, not the 4 and 8.
His times ARE the eyeball test. If he hasn't put up fast times, he hasn't passed it. OP is an idiot. -
if he wants to get fit, have him race the mile. if he still doesnt race a good 800 after having experience racing the mile a few times, then he isnt good at the 800. I mean hes been running mile pace, youd expect that to pan out better until he tapers and does more 800 and 400 pace runs.
its really three different things, long distance running, long sprinting, and short sprinting. middle distance being a catch all for fast distance runners and long sprinters with good endurance. a good short sprinter might not be suited to the 400/800. but its too early to say. if he runs a good 60, then hes a short sprinter. a good relay time, you can run that without great acceleration.
but I was kind of like that, id beat the entire distance team in a sprint but never put up good times, other than early season Id run well relative to the team because I was fast before doing speedwork .then my improvements were .5 or something it was lack of motivation. when you can run over 20 miles per hour in a sprint and youre doing 90 second quarters off short rest, you might as well be doing a tempo run. then racing the 400 and 800 and its faster than you ever go in training so you dont have the specific endurance. The mile offers more room to improve, its more aerobic, hes running to be fit. its counterintutive that would be motivational compared to the 400 and 800, but its a pace you can kick off and more stimulus to improve. Not that a well timed move into the 800 with a 400 race to sharpen for it, or a 200 race if the move is to the 400 couldnt pay off. wins are motivational, but not if you know its not close to your potential and nobody fit entered your race.
also the sprinters workout was shockingly similar to the mid distance workout because that isnt sprinting. try 150 s at 100 percent of 400 speed, 50s at 200 speed. -
I realize that the sprint workout wasn’t sprinting. I believe the coaching manuals would call it extensive tempo endurance. It’s more of a strength workout. Don’t worry, we’re doing 150s at full go and block starts to 30-60m and fly ins. That was the “2 days after a meet, let’s do some strength work because I’m not going to see a lot of you for the rest of spring break” workout.
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Hate to break it to you but if the kid can't run at least 53 off no training then he isn't a sprinter. Even I could run a 54 mid and I was a slow long distance kid. Stop trying to turn distance runner into a sprinter. Put some 40 mile weeks in him and see what he can do in the longer events.
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What the wrote:
Hate to break it to you but if the kid can't run at least 53 off no training then he isn't a sprinter. Even I could run a 54 mid and I was a slow long distance kid. Stop trying to turn distance runner into a sprinter. Put some 40 mile weeks in him and see what he can do in the longer events.
No idea what you are talking about. distance kids have a easier time running a 400 for the first time, they just dont have a high ceiling. A sprinter without much endurance is going to need some training before he can run something fast. I ran 54s early in highschool with training and ended up being a 48 and 22flat guy in college. -
What the wrote:
Hate to break it to you but if the kid can't run at least 53 off no training then he isn't a sprinter. Even I could run a 54 mid and I was a slow long distance kid. Stop trying to turn distance runner into a sprinter. Put some 40 mile weeks in him and see what he can do in the longer events.
He did run at least 53. -
Comrade of War wrote:
ended up being a 48 and 22flat guy in college.
That is slow for a college kid so I'm not sure what your point is. -
The phases of training mean very little when it comes to using them as an excuse for wildly varying performances.
No matter which phase you are in you are not far off your best.
The kid is a mediocre sprinter. Stop trying to convince yourself otherwise. He doesn't look winded because he is doing slow repeats. -
CoachB
It sounds like your kid has natural speed and endurance but doesn't know how to manage race pace and pain or doesn't want to. The 400 is a tough race to crack, esp for a newbie from soccer. Soccer players are used to sprinting for 30-50 meters at a time. Sure they get tired during the match but it's nothing like running 400m or 800m with half of it in the hurt locker. His interval times you posted aren't impressive given the rest, total reps, and his soccer background. I'd peg him around 2:08-2:11 based on the info you supplied. A 300TT would give you a better idea of his 400 potential and then explore his 800 work.
I'm sure you've coached enough to know a lot of sprinters run crappy 400s because they don't like the pain. My college team had a 22 ft jumper with a 11.4x FAT and a low 23. You would think he could run 51-53 for a B squad relay. He consistently ran 55s because he didn't like the 400 pain. Eventually the coach didn't put him in anymore 4x4s and I think the athlete got his way. -
Jesus, people on here acting like a 53-54 is really slow in a high school dual meet, thousands of schools would love to have another guy who runs that time on their team. Not everybody is fvcking some suburb of LA high school.
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Runs like 29's at a crappy college wrote:
Jesus, people on here acting like a 53-54 is really slow in a high school dual meet, thousands of schools would love to have another guy who runs that time on their team. Not everybody is fvcking some suburb of LA high school.
1) Who cares about dual meets? Those are for younger runners and just slow runners to get some experience and get to race.
2) The OP said he ran 55. Not really that impressive for a high school boy. If the kid is one of the top 4, then that's fine. He can help the 4x400 and maybe get faster, but no one should get excited about a 55 second 400...unless it's a girl, and even that time wouldn't win a state D1 title in Ohio. -
Flagpole wrote:
Runs like 29's at a crappy college wrote:
Jesus, people on here acting like a 53-54 is really slow in a high school dual meet, thousands of schools would love to have another guy who runs that time on their team. Not everybody is fvcking some suburb of LA high school.
1) Who cares about dual meets? Those are for younger runners and just slow runners to get some experience and get to race.
2) The OP said he ran 55. Not really that impressive for a high school boy. If the kid is one of the top 4, then that's fine. He can help the 4x400 and maybe get faster, but no one should get excited about a 55 second 400...unless it's a girl, and even that time wouldn't win a state D1 title in Ohio.
1. California leagues still care about duals.
2. CoachB is wondering why his new sprinter isn’t dropping at least 52s based on his short relay prowess.
3. What are his 200 splits for the 400? 27/27ish means he doesn’t like the hurt locker. 23/31 shows he has no idea how to pace. -
Iowa800 wrote:
CoachB
It sounds like your kid has natural speed and endurance but doesn't know how to manage race pace and pain or doesn't want to. The 400 is a tough race to crack, esp for a newbie from soccer. Soccer players are used to sprinting for 30-50 meters at a time. Sure they get tired during the match but it's nothing like running 400m or 800m with half of it in the hurt locker. His interval times you posted aren't impressive given the rest, total reps, and his soccer background. I'd peg him around 2:08-2:11 based on the info you supplied. A 300TT would give you a better idea of his 400 potential and then explore his 800 work.
I'm sure you've coached enough to know a lot of sprinters run crappy 400s because they don't like the pain. My college team had a 22 ft jumper with a 11.4x FAT and a low 23. You would think he could run 51-53 for a B squad relay. He consistently ran 55s because he didn't like the 400 pain. Eventually the coach didn't put him in anymore 4x4s and I think the athlete got his way.
Yes, this is what I'm thinking, he just doesn't know how to manage the race. I don't think he's afraid of the pain at all. He seems to be pushing pretty hard when he races. I think he just needs to do some stuff in training where he comes through the 200 in 26 then has to accelerate for 50m. I did that exact workout last weekend with a different soccer kid who does not have the raw speed of this kid. That second kid dropped his PR from 57 2 weeks ago to 56.3 last week, then led off our 4x4 with a 54.4 in the same meet. So, there's a lot that can be gained just from figuring out the rhythm of the event without any actual improvement of fitness.
