Why is Kipchoge the GOAT?

Average runner and mediocre thinker.

Not that it is the point of your post but Rupp has been beaten by 3 people. He came in 2nd at Boston 2017 and 3rd at the Olympics.

Beat Bekele and El G for WC gold in the 5k at the age of 18.

Just missed 2:00 hour barrier in marathon 14 or 15 years later.

Not too shabby

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Scorpion_runner wrote:

He is not the GOAT for me. He has no WR. That is imperative to be considered the GOAT

Kipsang is the only man to run sub 2:04 4 times, and he broke the WR. I know he has DNF'd 2 of his last 3 races, but that was due to stomach issues.

I'm not saying Kipsang is the GOAT, but rather his accomplishments puts him even with Kipchoge.

Foolish.

His PR is very close to the world record. And he has many other very fast times, also. Consistency in the big picture is the most important factor.

Additionally, it doesn't matter what the reason for Kipsang's last two DNFs is, they are still DNFs, which majorly tarnishes his otherwise very impressive record.

Kipchoge's consistency at an otherwise very unpredictable distance is unparalleled and no other marathoner could possibly be considered the GOAT over Kipchoge, world record or not.

When Kipchoge ran his PR he got into racing somewhere around mile20. The pace slowed as he and his opponent got tactical. When Kipchoge was on his own he picked the pace back up and just missed the WR,

Goat

2:00:25 period.

Yesheis wrote:

Goat

2:00:25 period.

You can start citing that time when the other world-class marathoners get their chance to run a perfectly paced marathon in perfect conditions. Until then, forget about it and start thinking about actual race times.

Has anyone else ever compiled such a dominant marathon record? (Obviously excluding people who didn't run majors against the best.)

Serious question.

Don't agree at all with you equating the faster time with being "better." The faster time is simply a faster time. Mo Farah's never broken 12:50 in the 5k but I don't think anyone would try to make the case those all those runners who broke 12:50 in Paris are better than Farah.

Carl Lewis is the greatest long jumper in history and he never held the world record. He did win 4 Olympic gold medals in 4 attempts. Conversely, although Beamon held the world record for 23 years and Mike Powell has held it for 27 years, and they've both won gold medals, I don't think anyone would claim that they are/were the greatest of all time.

Les wrote:

Don't agree at all with you equating the faster time with being "better." The faster time is simply a faster time. Mo Farah's never broken 12:50 in the 5k but I don't think anyone would try to make the case those all those runners who broke 12:50 in Paris are better than Farah.

Carl Lewis is the greatest long jumper in history and he never held the world record. He did win 4 Olympic gold medals in 4 attempts. Conversely, although Beamon held the world record for 23 years and Mike Powell has held it for 27 years, and they've both won gold medals, I don't think anyone would claim that they are/were the greatest of all time.

actually, Pedroso is the GOAT. He won the WC 4 times and the Olympics once, and jumped farther than any jumper in history. He was cheated out of the WR.

Eliud is the GOAT.

Breaking2 counts a lot.

He wins.

He runs fast.

Nobody ever better.

It's Egun wrote:

Eliud is the GOAT.

Breaking2 counts a lot.

He wins.

He runs fast.

Nobody ever better.

I don't know, man. I can't call Kipchoge goat. I still got Haile up there.

- broke the WR record twice

- 9 marathon wins!

- all he did was chase WRs

I know he has 4 DNFs, but that is because he went out hard and strong in every race. Plus he was just old in his last 3 DNFs.

Kipchoge has yet to get the WR, and that is a big part of running. HE has the consistency, but haile has more marathon wins, plus he broke the WR twice.....not once, but twice. That's double the points to me. From 2005-2010 Haile was the best marathoner in the world.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

It's Egun wrote:

Eliud is the GOAT.

Breaking2 counts a lot.

He wins.

He runs fast.

Nobody ever better.

I don't know, man. I can't call Kipchoge goat. I still got Haile up there.

- broke the WR record twice

- 9 marathon wins!

- all he did was chase WRs

I know he has 4 DNFs, but that is because he went out hard and strong in every race. Plus he was just old in his last 3 DNFs.

Kipchoge has yet to get the WR, and that is a big part of running. HE has the consistency, but haile has more marathon wins, plus he broke the WR twice.....not once, but twice. That's double the points to me. From 2005-2010 Haile was the best marathoner in the world.

Kipchoge almost has as many wins. There’s a decent chance he’ll have more when all is said and done.

Also, the world record was slower back then. Who cares? Kipchoge has run faster than Geb numerous times.

If Haile were a marathoner in this era, he would be 2:02, easily. Haile was the first to run run 2:03, and that was back in 2008! Kipchoge is still running 2:03 and has yet to run faster than that in a real marathon. Think about that, and kipchoge has only run 2:03 twice. He has run mostly 2:04 and 2:05.

If haile was a marathoner in this day and age, he would be a 2:02 marathoner and have the world record. Haile is the faster marathoner.

The more I think about......It's haile all day long.

Then you have Kipsang:

- 9 marathon victories

- four 2:03 marathon times

- WR, and beat Kipchoge while doing it.

To me the only thing that kipchoge has is consistency, but that isn't enough. He does not have the victories( close, but still not 9), nor the times, nor the WRs.

In order to be the GOAT, one has to be the the best across the board, and he is not.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

Les wrote:

Don't agree at all with you equating the faster time with being "better." The faster time is simply a faster time. Mo Farah's never broken 12:50 in the 5k but I don't think anyone would try to make the case those all those runners who broke 12:50 in Paris are better than Farah.

Carl Lewis is the greatest long jumper in history and he never held the world record. He did win 4 Olympic gold medals in 4 attempts. Conversely, although Beamon held the world record for 23 years and Mike Powell has held it for 27 years, and they've both won gold medals, I don't think anyone would claim that they are/were the greatest of all time.

actually, Pedroso is the GOAT. He won the WC 4 times and the Olympics once, and jumped farther than any jumper in history. He was cheated out of the WR.

Have to disagree. Lewis won the 4 Olympic Golds PLUS 2 World Championships Golds and one Silver for a total of 7 career medals. So he won 6 out of 7 major championships he competed in and finished second the other time. Pedroso, great jumper for sure, has 5 career medals, all Gold. He was fantastic at the World Championships, winning 4 out of 4, but only won 1 out of 4 Olympics he competed at and finished out of the medals 3 times.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

To me the only thing that kipchoge has is consistency, but that isn't enough. He does not have the victories( close, but still not 9), nor the times, nor the WRs.

In order to be the GOAT, one has to be the the best across the board, and he is not.

Absurd

Here's a fairly exhaustive comparison between three contenders for marathon GOAT, at least if we restrict our attention to after 2000.

Haile Gebrselassie

Top time: 2:03:59

Avg of top 3: 2:04:26

Avg of top 5: 2:04:56.6

Avg of top 7: 2:05:17.1

Avg of top 10: 2:05:40.7

Avg of all* (12): 2:06:12.9

* I'm not counting DNF's

WR's (2): 2:04:29, 2:03:58

Wins (9): Amsterdam (05), Fukuoka (06), Berlin (06, 07, 08, 09), Dubai (08, 09, 10)

Win Streak(s): 1, 2, 6

Longest win streak: Berlin 07, Dubai 08, Berlin 08, Dubai 09, Berlin 09, Dubai 10 (6 wins)

Wilson Kipsang

Top time: 2:03:13

Avg of top 3: 2:03:26

Avg of top 5: 2:03:45

Avg of top 7: 2:04:08.7

Avg of top 10: 2:04:53.8

Avg of all (12): 2:05:32.3

WR: 2:03:23

Wins (9): Frankfurt (10, 11), Lake Biwa (11), Honolulu (12), London (12, 14), Berlin (13), NYC (14), Tokyo (17)

Win streak(s): 8, 1

Longest win streak: Frankfurt 10, Lake Biwa 11, Frankfurt 11, London 12, Honolulu 12, Berlin 13, London 14, NYC 14 (8 wins)

Eliud Kipchoge

Top time: 2:03:05

Avg of top 3: 2:03:32.3

Avg of top 5: 2:03:46.6

Avg of top 7: 2:04:05

Avg of all (9): 2:04:45.4

Wins (8): Hamburg (13), Rotterdam (14), Chicago (14), London (15, 16), Berlin (15, 17), Rio Olympics (2016)

Win streak(s): 1, 7

Longest win streak: 7, everything but hamburg.

The way I see it, Wilson Kipsang may abstractly have the best profile for GOAT. He's set a world record, is tied for 6th (4th if you exclude the Boston times) fastest all time, his 4th performance is the 16th fastest all-time, he won 8 marathons in a row, 4 of which were majors, and has won 9 total marathons including 5 major victories.

Unfortunately for Wilson, Eliud's career is nearly as impressive, better on account of consistency, and he's bested Kipsang on 3 of the four occasions they have met. No, he does not (yet?) have a world record, but his 2:03:05 clocking in London is the 3rd/4th fastest all-time, and anyone who watched the race knows it very well could have been a 2:02:5x performance [if not faster...]. His win-streak of 7 is nearly the longest anyone's has been, and is arguably the most impressive in terms of the wins, including 5 majors and one olympic victory. Moreover, while I didn't want to argue with the 2:00:25, i think it's undeniable Kipchoge would have beat any human that day and so his streak could easily have been 8. Of course if we are going to argue hypotheticals, it's worth noting Kipsang might have won 10 in a row were it not for coming up against Kipchoge and Bekele, two of the greatest of all time.

Haile's record is undeniably impressive, and it's true that his slower across the board times might be more due to the era he was competing in. Setting the WR twice is unthinkable in the modern era, although Kipsang has come mighty close. However, across the board his performances average almost a minute or more slower than Kipsang and Kipchoge's. I just don't think it's reasonable to rank him higher than them on that account. On the other hand, winning Berlin four years in a row is another achievement that seems unthinkable in the modern era.

In my opinion the current standings favor Kipchoge as GOAT, but there is certainly room for compelling disagreement. However, if Kipchoge sets a WR, or if he extends his win streak to an unprecedented 9 wins, I think that there can no longer be any argument. Really I think that if he achieves a sub 2:04 win in London this April, the case for GOAT is settled, but again I can see some people holding out unless a WR or truly unthinkable win streak comes about.

Corvid wrote:

I don't like to deal with "relatively" faster. Until he runs the time, Kimetto is a faster marathoner than Kipchoge. All I'm saying is that you need a world record in your respective event to be considered the GOAT. That being said, a world record alone is not enough to be the GOAT either. Kipchoge has the consistency piece, but he doesn't have the world record piece.

Actually you do deal with "relatively" faster because you said breaking2 doesn't count...Breaking2 was still a marathon distance with no net loss in elevation.. So by not counting Breaking2 you're saying that perfect pacing, weather conditions, etc. matter at lot...which they do. So yes, until Kipchoge runs faster in a certified race he won't have the WR, but in order to stay logically consistent you have to admit the possibility that Kipchoge's Berlin performance may have been the best run in a marathon- if all other factors were equal.