The '20 minute tempo run'

It was very Clintonesque, I admit.

Interesting.

Pariah is posting as multiple people and is clearly a moderator.

And Sage Canady has read a bit on exercise physiology, but does not fully understand the concepts.

Weird science.

Please do not quote Scott Simmons on the board. He’s not credible to be quoted. Laughable, yes. The guy is a snake oil salesman who has been scheming in the running cross country world for at least 2 decades.

Quote me in one place where I was incorrect on this thread?

It's egun wrote:

Interesting.

Pariah is posting as multiple people and is clearly a moderator.

And Sage Canady has read a bit on exercise physiology, but does not fully understand the concepts.

Weird science.

coach wrote:

I work with HS kids and a 20 minute tempo run early in the season is very difficult for many of them. I tend to start with 1200 meter or 1600 meter cruise intervals with very little rest early in the season and build up to 20 minute tempo runs.

I basically wound up doing the same thing. We were doing 5 x 1000 in our early practices.

To me early season you want to do some long runs if they have not been doing them. (Which was our situation most year's) Maybe once per week you have them do 3 x 1600 at current 5K race pace and make sure their heart rate is below 120 before letting them go again on the next rep.

The 1600 at a decent speed is the key distance because they must get used to hurting for a long period of time. I'm not sure Tempo runs do that. Of course you can do "progressive runs as in

6:05-5:45-5:30-5:10," or whatever is appropriate for them.

This was a pretty good thread for a little while.

Smoove wrote:

This was a pretty good thread for a little while.

Fun while it lasted.

what to do? wrote:

Bob Schul Country wrote:

never schedule that lactate threshold/tempo day. Just let it happen. When you are running along and it hits you to run faster just let it happen.

Like.

Good advice- too many fall into the trap of completing pre-scheduled workouts no matter how they feel.

Go ahead and schedule them but don't be afraid to put it off.

There are far better training threads if you use the search function. Back in the day the training threads used to have content from some of the world's top coaches and running minds. For example if you search "tempo run" you'll find a lot more accurate and helpful discussions that some of the nonsense pseudoscience in this thread like debating the "train don't strain" concept.

Deep sigh from an old coach wrote:

you're joking, right? wrote:I went through a few killer workouts in my track days, but I don't even know how/why cruise intervals would be brought into a workout that was intended to be more than mildly challenging.

Because some kids can't run a 20 min tempo run. Re-read my progression: do you think the goal is to continue using cruise intervals? No. The goal is to work up to doing a 20 min tempo run.

Question: would you rather do 5x1k at tempo pace or a 20 minute not-really-tempo-run-that-doesn't-really-work-any-specific-system? You can do what you want, but I have had good results with starting kids out with cruise intervals and building from there.

I think this type of progression can work for anyone trying to dial in a goal pace. I don't know about all of you but I struggle with 20min tempos early in a training cycle. But I can do 6-8 x 800 at HM/10k pace and slowly build from there along the lines coach suggested so by the time I'm 10 weeks or so out from a race 20min tempos are challenging but doable.

Of course I'll wait for someone to yell at me to run tempos at "current fitness" and they won't be so hard.

It's egun wrote:

Interesting.

Pariah is posting as multiple people and is clearly a moderator.

And Sage Canady has read a bit on exercise physiology, but does not fully understand the concepts.

Weird science.

No. I'm not. I don't have a copy of JDs book to quote from. This might come as some surprise to you, but quite a few people post on this forum and quite a few of them have run a lot. Some of them have read Daniels.

And if you know more than Sage then please share your superior knowledge with us.

dril wrote:

There are far better training threads if you use the search function. Back in the day the training threads used to have content from some of the world's top coaches and running minds. For example if you search "tempo run" you'll find a lot more accurate and helpful discussions that some of the nonsense pseudoscience in this thread like debating the "train don't strain" concept.

"nonsense pseudoscience in this thread like debating the "train don't strain" concept????

What is that supposed to mean? Are you pro "train don't strain" concept like me or not?

Because your statement could be interpreted either way.

Dril wrote:

Are you seriously talking about the denotations and connotations of cannot? You'll do all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid being wrong, eh? I made about as uncontroversial statement as possible. Daniels describes tempo pace as comfortably hard. For those who have a bad sense of hard, he also describes it as the pace you can run for 1hr. If you can't run comfortably hard for 20 minutes you either are not running comfortably hard or you can't run 20 minutes. I'm not sure why you and the other guy are so insistent on having this ridiculous argument.

Dril, as in tool.

pariah wrote:

What people call 'lactic acid' is hydrogen ions, and it's not a cause of fatigue but a product of anaerobic respiration. You will feel it at the end of a long run when you go uphill even though your lactate levels are low. You will feel it at the end of a long sprint when your lactate levels are high. So it don't got nuthin to do with lactate levels. It hurts because you are trying to recruit fast twitch fibers that don't have enough glycogen.

So the goal is or should be to run at a pace where you can use fast and slow twitch fibers together without depleting your fast twitch fibers. When it goes well, the fast twitch fibers keep refueling by the uptake of lactate re-converted to glycogen. Not a lot of people know that, but everyone should.

1) Perhaps your post is poorly worded, but it seems you are conflating glycogen depletion, hydrogen ion buildup, and muscle fatigue. Glycogen depletion ≠ H+ buildup but may contribute to muscle fatigue. H+ also contributes to muscle fatigue, and is certainly the source of the burning sensation caused by intense effort. However muscle fatigue ≠ acid burn necessarily.

2) It is wrong to suggest that lactate and H+ buildup are unrelated. Both are byproducts of anaerobic respiration. Fermentation is not the only source of H+ ions, but it is a major contributor, and blood lactate levels end up being a good marker for relative exertion.

3) Stop insisting that lactic acid is an inappropriate term. Lactate is the conjugate base of lactic acid, and the only reason it is technically the more correct term is because we're dealing with aqueous conditions. Lactic acid almost completely dissociates in the cells into lactate and H+. However, there is both lactate and lactic acid present in your cells at any given moment. It's semantics and unimportant to the overall conversation.

4) The primary goal of LT pace has very little to do with fast/slow twitch recruitment (though it may be a secondary benefit), and much more to do with training metabolic adaptation within the muscle cells. There is a wealth of research that shows the aerobic and anaerobic systems work in tandem -- anaerobic respiration does not just occur when oxygen is limited. There is also a wealth of research that shows skeletal muscles are highly adaptable to stresses on the energy systems. LT pace is highly efficient at stimulating a shift in the metabolic mix towards glycolysis at a given pace. The benefits of which should be obvious.

5) Lactate may be converted back to glucose via the Cori cycle, but it is also converted within the cell to pyruvate, which can then be oxidized. There are training implications here, of course.

But really, pariah, most of this is unimportant to the discussion of this thread. All of it can be boiled down to: You should spend time at LT pace, and how much you do and the way you do it really depends on your training history and your goals.

1, I'm saying that fast twitch fibers deplete rapidly and are re-fueled by lactate (gluconeogenesis) this is the source of the H+ build up. Yes of course it burns, that's the acidity.

2, Yes lactate and H+ are correlated I never said otherwise.

3, Lactic acid is very much an inappropriate term. There is no lactic acid, so there is no disociation into lactate. Lactate is a product of the lactate dehydrogenase reaction. Why would you believe otherwise?

The H+ comes from the hydrolysis of the ATP that is produced by this reaction. You need to update your biochemistry from back in the day to the present day.

4, Fast twitch fibers are recruited for the power needed to run at so callled Threshold pace. How in the world can the top guys run 4.20 to 4.30 per mile in a half marathon without recruiting FT fibers? The use of different muscle fibers is cyclical, they use up glycogen, and then refuel over and over for the duration of the run, that is one of the benefits of lactate shuttling.

pariah wrote:

4, Fast twitch fibers are recruited for the power needed to run at so callled Threshold pace. How in the world can the top guys run 4.20 to 4.30 per mile in a half marathon without recruiting FT fibers? The use of different muscle fibers is cyclical, they use up glycogen, and then refuel over and over for the duration of the run, that is one of the benefits of lactate shuttling.

Say what now...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't the primary goal of LT pace training. That would be the metabolic adaptation that I mentioned. Perhaps this could be considered a subset of that adaptation.

You said "it don't got nuthin to do with lactate." Perhaps I misinterpreted that.

This is like arguing that a solution of sulfuric acid is really just a mixture of sulfate and hydronium ions. It's the same thing. The fact that pyruvate and lactate are present means you have pyruvic and lactic acids in solution.

Yes, hydrolysis of ATP is one source of H+. H+ is also a byproduct of fermentation. Follow the chemistry. It's important to note that while aerobic respiration consumes H+ in the redox reaction of O2 and H+, anaerobic respiration obviously lacks that step and is a net producer of H+. Not only does it produce H+, but the hydrolysis of the ATP it produces results in more H+ without any steps to reduce it.

Perhaps I worded my point #4 poorly. I agree FT fibers are important to running fast. I do not view FT recruitment as the primary goal of LT training.

Moove over, pariah, Drill, and you're joking, right?...there's a new Sherriff in town! Darth Pariah is schooling everyone!