Why did EPO times peak just before testing was introduced?

They are all cheats wrote:

The E. Africans are still allowed to dope in that they are literally NEVER TESTED out of competition / off season. When they do get caught, the big name athletes are let off for the most part and some lesser star or "B" level athlete has to take a suspension to give the impression that enforcement is equal.

Olympic and World Cross Country Champion John Ngugi was banned for refusing a test at his home in Kenya in 1993.

Rita Jeptoo, World Marathon Major Champion, and Olympic marathon champion Jemima Sumgong have also been caught in out of competition testing.

Stick to what you know, which isn't this.

Noah was dirty wrote:

Not true. Ngeny was caught in Sydney (as was Lagat, a multiple offender) and it was let go for political reasons. Lots of media people are aware of this. Others were tagged as well. Officials were ready to pounce on runners from countries not protected like the E. African nations, Cuba, and so on. Laugh if you want, but if you actually know people who were at the Games involved in the media, they know. Once in it a while it comes up, but people want to be PC when it comes to third world people and nations.

Cuba is protected but they let the greatest high jumper who ever lived test positive for cocaine and nadrolone?

Tell us more about this "stricter testing" milestone in 2004/2005. Besides EPO, I would say other significant factors are: 1) we don't have athletes today comparable to Geb, Komen, Bekele and El G. 2) Fans got less interested in watching East African, and Moroccan, domination at the track, so the money on the track dried up, and new "European only" events appeared. 3) The most talented athletes are now going straight to road races, particularly the marathon, where the drops in record times have accelerated starting with Geb in 2007. If you do the same "sportsscientists" analysis on the United States, you can come up with a very different set of questions: - Why have distances times plateaued since the 1980's? - Why are the best American runners so often African imports? - Why did Americans resurge in distance running after the introduction of even stricter testing, the ABP, in 2009? This analysis could be repeated for Europe, and Russia, and Japan, and Australia/New Zealand, again, with no observed drop in times until 2004/5. Your logic and focus on El G is a little hard to follow. You say his best years were late, at 29-30, and suggest that peaking at 30 shows he was doping in his teens, because he should have peaked at 24/25? El G had a long and prolific career, running 3:26s in 1998 (at 24) through 2002 (at age 28), and in 2004 (at age 30), ran 3:27.64. After competing at an international level for 10 years, you call his retirement sudden?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

They are all cheats wrote:

The E. Africans are still allowed to dope in that they are literally NEVER TESTED out of competition / off season. When they do get caught, the big name athletes are let off for the most part and some lesser star or "B" level athlete has to take a suspension to give the impression that enforcement is equal.

Olympic and World Cross Country Champion John Ngugi was banned for refusing a test at his home in Kenya in 1993.

Rita Jeptoo, World Marathon Major Champion, and Olympic marathon champion Jemima Sumgong have also been caught in out of competition testing.

Stick to what you know, which isn't this.

When was blood testing introduced in Kenya?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

WADA wrote:

This may sound a stupid question, but why did WRs continually fall and average elite times continue to come down through the 90s right up to around 2004/05 after which stricter testing was introduced?

9 of the top 20 times ever at 5000m have been run since 2005.

7 of the top 11 fastest 1500m runners in history have run their best between 2013 and 2017 (the slowest of those being 3:28.81).

EPO provides a boost in the marathon. See Jemima Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo. 800m, too. Even Jerome Young was caught for EPO.

Why take the fastest 11 for 1500m? If you take the top 20, as you did for the 5000m, then its 8 out of 20 best performers pbs set since 2013. What should be added to that is everyone of those were in Monaco!

No one has broken 3:29 on a track other than Monaco, since before 2005. That's 13 seasons!

perhaps it's because Monte Carlo is another Mickey Mouse track like Oslo, Florence et al

rekrunner wrote:

1) we don't have athletes today comparable to Geb, Komen, Bekele and El G.

Doubt it. Based on what facts? Also you are forgetting Lagat and Tergat and the other Moroccans.

And why would that be since ten+ years? Another of your famous coincidences?

rekrunner wrote:

This analysis could be repeated for Europe, and Russia, and Japan, and Australia/New Zealand, again, with no observed drop in times until 2004/5.

No. Why do you keep saying this? You know better. Troll less obviously next time. There were lots of national records there from 91 - 04, certainly a lot more than from 05 - 17.

rekrunner wrote:

Your logic and focus on El G is a little hard to follow.

Yes, that's true for a change.

Given the fact that, given this opportunity, you didn't respond with an example. If I asked you "which athlete since 2004-2005 compares to Geb, Komen, Bekele, El G, Lagat, Tergat, and other Moroccans", you would say "I don't know", or "Nobody" -- or maybe you would find a way to turn it around and prove first that I have a basis to ask the question.

There are a number of reasons -- one of which is that the money at the track has dried up, so the track talent goes straight to the roads. Another one is lack of rivalries.

Honestly, I can't keep track of which EPO milestones are supposed to be the crucial ones. In another thread, Subway Surfer suggests that EPO doping wasn't really curbed until people got scared of testing in London 2012, and you repeatedly argue that even today, it's still 57%, and that micro-dosing still produces the same macro-benefit. And yet here we are trying to help the OP understand the great 2004/2005 improvement in EPO testing that finally curbed track times -- or have they, because Slow Mo is still widely considered as doped to the gills, despite his relatively unimpressive best times.

Sorry, it was badly phrased. Replace that with "no comparable peak in records until 2004/2005, when the EPO peak ended" -- the period that Ross Tucker associates with EPO. If I go to Ross Tucker's website, and look at the 5000m and 10000m graphs, the one with the blue arrow that says "Commercial introduction of EPO", and plug in the data for the United States, Europe, and Russia, and Japan, and Australia/New Zealand, I won't find any massive drop in times where it makes sense to point at it with a blue arrow. I will struggle to find any correlation that I can connect to EPO or EPO testing. In fact, there are some strange contradictions. More Americans went faster in the 5K and 10K after the ABP in 2009. The marathon got faster starting with Geb's World Record in 2007.

What, you are using my question as evidence?

In any case, you are wrong again. I'd simply list:

Kiprop, Farah, Gebremeskel, Koech, Ndiku, Edris, Kamworor, G. Mutai, Kimetto, Kipsang, ...

Ayana, Genzebe, Jepkosgei Keitany, ...

So again, what's your evidence?

We could also look at Bekele and Kipchoge. Maybe another time, when you are in a more serious mood.

But wait, aren't the men now slower on the track? Yes, because a) they have to restrict their EPO usage and b) many prefer to try their luck on the roads.

But, aren't the women still improving on the track? Yes they are. Culture, they are still catching up in Africa with respect to women's training (and rights etc.).

Ah no, I never ever said that. Stop trolling.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

WADA wrote:

This may sound a stupid question, but why did WRs continually fall and average elite times continue to come down through the 90s right up to around 2004/05 after which stricter testing was introduced?

9 of the top 20 times ever at 5000m have been run since 2005.

7 of the top 11 fastest 1500m runners in history have run their best between 2013 and 2017 (the slowest of those being 3:28.81).

EPO provides a boost in the marathon. See Jemima Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo. 800m, too. Even Jerome Young was caught for EPO.

Yeah, but she had this private email server, ya see, and ....

Deanouk wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

9 of the top 20 times ever at 5000m have been run since 2005.

7 of the top 11 fastest 1500m runners in history have run their best between 2013 and 2017 (the slowest of those being 3:28.81).

EPO provides a boost in the marathon. See Jemima Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo. 800m, too. Even Jerome Young was caught for EPO.

Why take the fastest 11 for 1500m? If you take the top 20, as you did for the 5000m, then its 8 out of 20 best performers pbs set since 2013. What should be added to that is everyone of those were in Monaco!

No one has broken 3:29 on a track other than Monaco, since before 2005. That's 13 seasons!

So it is 8 of the top twenty for 5000m, on the other thread there was debate about the post 2009 ABP introduction, which certainly has eradicated Moroccans doing sub 13 times, only Iguider, a 3:28 man has done it (once) since, 12:59.something. However, there is still enough wiggle room to cheat since the ABP, apparently Ashenden claims you can still reinfuse two blood bags or microdose on epo. However, there is certainly a slowdown since the the London Olympics, Soi & Rop ran 12:51 "on the Monaco track," the fastest times of 2014 & 2015 were athletes not then in the IAAF testing pool, they have run slower since then. Both Mo and Lagat did their 5,000m bests in 2011 on the Monaco track. Since the Monaco meet canned the 5,000m, someone can correct me but no one in the testing pool has run faster than 12:54/55 on any of the other tracks.

Over 1500m the really fast times have been done by Kiprop & Kiplagat. Thanks to fancy bears, we know that the IAAF thinks they're dodgy too. Kiprop in 2016 was running 3:29 in the Birmingham diamond league race without trouble, weeks earlier LRC reported that he was doing 2:47 for 1200m in training at altitude in Kenya, then doing several 53 odd seconds 400m reps straight after. Then Rosa gets busted and suddenly 3:33 looks good for him. In literally days, with no reported injury.

Really Seppelt has done the most to shine sunlight on all this in recent years. But still the testing in Kenya is weak and Ethiopia is non-existent. Look at Moen (who may well be entirely clean), he was tested more times for ABP in 2015/16 when living solely in Norway doing 28:30, 62, 2:14 than when living in Kenya doing 27, 59, and 2:05.

rekrunner wrote:

- Why did Americans resurge in distance running after the introduction of even stricter testing, the ABP, in 2009?

[/quote]

NOP

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

- Why did Americans resurge in distance running after the introduction of even stricter testing, the ABP, in 2009?

NOP[/quote]+1 Bingo

Actually I was using what was lacking in your first answer, comparing the similarity to what is lacking today at the track. My evidence is some combination of different measures of performance: - Number of years dominating at the track - Number of world records set - Number of events setting a world record - Number of top 10 all time performances - Number of events with a top 10 all time performance - Number of top 100 all time performances ... I understood this thread to be about men's time on the track -- given the initial reference to El G, and the "sportsscientists" link looking at performance trends in the men's 5000m and men's 10000m -- and not the roads, and not the women, where a number of records have been set since 2004/2005.

casual obsever wrote:

What, you are using my question as evidence?

In any case, you are wrong again. I'd simply list:

Kiprop, Farah, Gebremeskel, Koech, Ndiku, Edris, Kamworor, G. Mutai, Kimetto, Kipsang, ...

Ayana, Genzebe, Jepkosgei Keitany, ...

So again, what's your evidence?

We could also look at Bekele and Kipchoge. Maybe another time, when you are in a more serious mood.

But wait, aren't the men now slower on the track? Yes, because a) they have to restrict their EPO usage and b) many prefer to try their luck on the roads.

But, aren't the women still improving on the track? Yes they are. Culture, they are still catching up in Africa with respect to women's training (and rights etc.).

rekrunner wrote:

you repeatedly argue that even today, it's still 57%, and that micro-dosing still produces the same macro-benefit.

Ah no, I never ever said that. Stop trolling.

Solinsky? Tegenkamp? Jager? True?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

- Why did Americans resurge in distance running after the introduction of even stricter testing, the ABP, in 2009?

NOP

are you related to conova .............

m.a.g.a resurgence with said athletes was maybe just that and

or more like the availability of other epo variants dont and wont test for , the nike sauce

many anomalies in the epo peaking timeline suggest and many more assumptions

seeing how iaaf and wada conduct their selfes made very evident .

and certain areas and athletes beings literally being made and aided in doping , the chosen few .

tests obviously mean nothing when talk of a collective few stars with elite backing

same elites that control much of everything especially the big pharma industry.

400m and 800m are not worthy of the list .

1.

considering what epo did for a certain kenyan that went to denmark

at same time as mr 60 per cent was winning and would not be major

ask to say he had close links to who was supplying risse

had that little scare in 2000 when told test out , a little blib in progression but

sure went to kenya to train and figured it out like most others and still perform

well but not as well and keep that legacy without fear of a positive

unlike dopey morrocans

rudisha had gw501516 and speed peptide at very least

so your progression doesnt factor in other peds

as bit the real pushing of progression MICERA and bekele

2.

EPO was first used in the 400m and first world record

again straight from big pharma in states and seeing what can do in various sports

and first used in 400m in kenya with still fastest time until summer maybe

as with the number of kenyans on the speed peptide and now focusing on 400m

dont think last long .

why of all places in epo infancy did it manage to appear in 400m in kenya in early 1990,s

when couldnt easily buy over counter for many many more years , well what is happening here

obvious that very much a manager and agent affair with trying to find certain athletes and still is .

epo still very much a part of progression of marathon in chosen countries due to managers and situation

if connected to these big managers who knowes what can get away with .

and speed peptide has apart to play too.

rekrunner wrote:

Solinsky? Tegenkamp? Jager? True?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

NOP

Well you know what I mean, Schumacher's groups pretty much have same access to everything Salazar's group has.

rekrunner wrote:

Actually I was using what was lacking in your first answer, comparing the similarity to what is lacking today at the track.

Actually no, actually you wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Given the fact that, given this opportunity, you didn't respond with an example.

rekrunner wrote:

My evidence is some combination of different measures of performance

Yes, I thought so. But performance is influenced by doping, as most people know.

So you call the relative absence of fast times on the track in this decade evidence of - of course coincidental - lack of talents over a whole decade, whereas others know that a) lots of runners dope, b) testing got more stringent, especially with regards to EPO pre-2005, c) doping aids performance.

But sure, blame coincidence and then "conclude" that doping doesn't work.