Why did EPO times peak just before testing was introduced?

It sounds stupid because it is. How much wrong bullshit can you fit in one post?

* El G did not peak in 2003 at age 29. His WR came in 1998 at age 23 and he ran 3:26 again at age 26. Nothing about his progression is abnormal.

* World records did not stop in 2004/2005. On the men's side we've seen world records in the 800 (2012), half marathon (2007, 2010), marathon (2007, 2008, 2011, 2013, 2014), and almost in the steeple (2011) among others. The EPO test came out in 2003 so the world records in 2004-2005 did not come out 'just before' testing was introduced.

LevelHeadedPerson wrote:

It sounds stupid because it is. How much wrong bullshit can you fit in one post?

* El G did not peak in 2003 at age 29. His WR came in 1998 at age 23 and he ran 3:26 again at age 26. Nothing about his progression is abnormal.

* World records did not stop in 2004/2005. On the men's side we've seen world records in the 800 (2012), half marathon (2007, 2010), marathon (2007, 2008, 2011, 2013, 2014), and almost in the steeple (2011) among others. The EPO test came out in 2003 so the world records in 2004-2005 did not come out 'just before' testing was introduced.

O.K., I screwed up with El G's progression.

Still, if you read the article I linked to, the graph shows clearly that average elite times and the best times for 5000 and 1000 came down steadily till around 2004/05. Testing might have come out in 2003 but it wasn't reliable until 2004 or 05.

The 800m WR is irrelevant to EPO. EPO seems to be most effective between 1500 and 10000m. Runners have still continued taking it hence all the busts, especially from Morocco, but testing has had a big impact on average elite times and the best times from 1500 to 10000. It is just a coincidence to you that all these greats such as El G and Komen all appeared just at the height of usage for the world's first endurance drug??

El G's career peak did happen at age 30 (2004 Olympics). He ran 3:26 aged 28 which is seven seconds faster than what he was running at age 20 (and likely doping for several years even then). Then he suddenly retired even though he was earning millions each year from appearance fees which would likely have increased after Sydney for the next 5 years. Retiring at age 30 after Sydney likely cost him at least $10 million...unless he was factoring in the financial impact of a failed EPO test. Very very rare for a boxer earning that amount of mony to retire at the top despite the brain trauma that fighting on would entail. If El G was clean and simply better than his rivals (who we know many of whom were busted for EPO) and testing was being introduced, surely he would have gone on knowing that his incredible gap in natural talent over his rivals could have seen him win gold in 2004 and even 2008, and probably earn another $20 million? (as well as put to bed any allegations of his career being due soley to EPO abuse).

*win gold in 2008 and even 2012

Why? You know why, the sport was filthy.

LevelHeadedPerson wrote:

The EPO test came out in 2003 so the world records in 2004-2005 did not come out 'just before' testing was introduced.

The EPO test was supposedly experimented with at the Sydney Olympics but no one tested positive. I believe Italy's Roberto Barbi holds the infamous distinction of being the first elite to test positive in 2001. He was glowing in a pre-race test sample he gave on the day he arrived in Edmonton for the WCs marathon:

There was also two big names that followed in 2002; Brahim Boulami who gave a hot sample the day before he set the steeplechase WR & 12:49 speedster Mohammed Mourhit was also glowing when a surprise test was conducted at the 2002 half-marathon WCs in Brussels. Neither of these two guys must have paid much attention to Barbi's positive a year earlier or thought there would be no EPO testing at their respective events.

WADA wrote:

Testing might have come out in 2003 but it wasn't reliable until 2004 or 05.

You might want to read up on the Ramzi case in the IAAF's response to all the unpunished blood doping of the last decade, to see how much EPO (CERA) doping was possible back then.

Even now, people get away with lots of EPO, IF they just pay attention to its glow time. And the ABP with its ludicrously generous thresholds (allegedly to avoid false positives) didn't even notice the Russian EPO cheats, who just stayed under 15% Hct increase.

But yeah, El G might have gotten nervous, or he knew that he couldn't reduce his dosage without slowing down a lot. Who knows.

casual obsever wrote:

You might want to read up on the Ramzi case in the IAAF's response to all the unpunished blood doping of the last decade, to see how much EPO (CERA) doping was possible back then.

Even now, people get away with lots of EPO, IF they just pay attention to its glow time. And the ABP with its ludicrously generous thresholds (allegedly to avoid false positives) didn't even notice the Russian EPO cheats, who just stayed under 15% Hct increase.

Great points...and don't forget the microdose study: 12 week cycle = "10% increase in total haemoglobin mass equivalent to approximately two bags of reinfused blood" where the passport software *did not* flag it as abnormal.

LevelHeadedPerson wrote:

* World records did not stop in 2004/2005. On the men's side we've seen world records in the 800 (2012), half marathon (2007, 2010), marathon (2007, 2008, 2011, 2013, 2014), and almost in the steeple (2011) among others. The EPO test came out in 2003 so the world records in 2004-2005 did not come out 'just before' testing was introduced.

Lol, what a fool. You know your argument is crap when you're saying things like 'almost the steeple (2011)'. World records did come to a stop with better testing finally in 2005 (or around then) from the 1000m to the 10000m. Not only that, most of the best times plummetted after steadily improving for a decade (since EPO was first introduced). This is why the IAAF are going to scrub all records before 2005. (although a more level headed and fair approach would be to scrub the sprints, all African world records, and all Soviet Bloc pre 1989 records.)

[quote]WADA wrote:

The 800m WR is irrelevant to EPO. EPO seems to be most effective between 1500 and 10000m. Runners have still continued taking it hence all the busts, especially from Morocco, but testing has had a big impact on average elite times and the best times from 1500 to 10000. It is just a coincidence to you that all these greats such as El G and Komen all appeared just at the height of usage for the world's first endurance drug??Huh? Where did you get that from? The 800 meters involves endurance, doesn't it? Last time I checked it's not a sprint event. Here's some faster 800m runners who served bans for using EPO:

Jolanda Čeplak (1:55.19/18th all-time fastest!)

Mariya Savinova (1:57.56)

Hind Dehiba (1:58.67)

Rashid Ramzi (1:44.05)

Fouad Chouki (1:45.77)

WADA wrote:

The 800m WR is irrelevant to EPO. EPO seems to be most effective between 1500 and 10000m. Runners have still continued taking it hence all the busts, especially from Morocco, but testing has had a big impact on average elite times and the best times from 1500 to 10000. It is just a coincidence to you that all these greats such as El G and Komen all appeared just at the height of usage for the world's first endurance drug??

Huh? Where did you get that from? The 800 meters involves endurance, doesn't it? Last time I checked it's not a sprint event. Here's some faster 800m runners who served bans for using EPO:

Jolanda Čeplak (1:55.19/18th all-time fastest!)

Mariya Savinova (1:57.56)

Hind Dehiba (1:58.67)

Rashid Ramzi (1:44.05)

Fouad Chouki (1:45.77)

WADA wrote:

This may sound a stupid question, but why did WRs continually fall and average elite times continue to come down through the 90s right up to around 2004/05 after which stricter testing was introduced?

9 of the top 20 times ever at 5000m have been run since 2005.

7 of the top 11 fastest 1500m runners in history have run their best between 2013 and 2017 (the slowest of those being 3:28.81).

EPO provides a boost in the marathon. See Jemima Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo. 800m, too. Even Jerome Young was caught for EPO.

Jon Orange is formulating a springy foot hypothesis even as you write.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

WADA wrote:

This may sound a stupid question, but why did WRs continually fall and average elite times continue to come down through the 90s right up to around 2004/05 after which stricter testing was introduced?

9 of the top 20 times ever at 5000m have been run since 2005.

7 of the top 11 fastest 1500m runners in history have run their best between 2013 and 2017 (the slowest of those being 3:28.81).

EPO provides a boost in the marathon. See Jemima Sumgong and Rita Jeptoo. 800m, too. Even Jerome Young was caught for EPO.

Just because they take it does not imply that it is beneficial.

I can't figure out why the 2012 Paris 5000 was so fast then.

The E. Africans are still allowed to dope in that they are literally NEVER TESTED out of competition / off season. When they do get caught, the big name athletes are let off for the most part and some lesser star or "B" level athlete has to take a suspension to give the impression that enforcement is equal.

El G peaked before he was 29/30 as most runners do lol. That said, he was likely a terrific responder to EPO, just like Geb and KB and other top stars. Then of course we have the immoral, amazing liars who claim EPO doesn't work for E. Africans. KB or Geb are likely more deserving of the title of King of EPO than El G, although the micro-dosing King / best responder today is likely Kipchoge. You can bet Mo was taking the needle during his trips to Ethiopia etc.

Not true. Ngeny was caught in Sydney (as was Lagat, a multiple offender) and it was let go for political reasons. Lots of media people are aware of this. Others were tagged as well. Officials were ready to pounce on runners from countries not protected like the E. African nations, Cuba, and so on. Laugh if you want, but if you actually know people who were at the Games involved in the media, they know. Once in it a while it comes up, but people want to be PC when it comes to third world people and nations.

They are all cheats wrote:

The E. Africans are still allowed to dope in that they are literally NEVER TESTED out of competition / off season. /quote]

I think it was David Torrence that said something about how a pile of Kenyans get told to turn up somewhere tomorrow for random drug testing. While western athletes get woken up randomly in the morning.

[quote]You can bet Mo was taking the needle during his trips to Ethiopia etc.

At least Kenyans get some testing, Ethiopia is a joke. Ayana is literally pulling the full moon at testing officials.

Noah was dirty wrote:

Not true. Ngeny was caught in Sydney (as was Lagat, a multiple offender) and it was let go for political reasons. Lots of media people are aware of this.

Evidence.

Fallen arches and dumped vials wrote:

Jon Orange is formulating a springy foot hypothesis even as you write.

Jon Orange or Gary Rekrunner? ?