Okay, experienced coach, what about 1 workout a week and a few sprints makes a 2:05 marathoner? You know very well that most people doing one big workout a week and the usual strides or sprints, plus heavy volume, are not running that fast relative to their ability, in contrast to those doing 2-3, and I have seen plenty of Canova workout schedules for elite Kenyans in which they are doing two or three workouts per week.
Jack Daniels Koolade drinker wrote:
So, a workout of 4,3,2,1 miles at T pace would be 20,15,10,5 minutes for everyone but the elite would complete 10 hard miles but a runner running 7 minute miles would only complete about 7 miles.
It isn't hard to adapt Canova principles.
At the heart of things is the point, totally correct, is that most amateurs don't train "long hard" nearly enough.
Most amateurs are pretty good at going long and easy (everyone you see out for Sunday long run day), and pretty enthusiastic about going short and fast (400s or 1000s etc at 5k pace). But most runners and frankly many coaches are NOT good about calling for 10+ miles of marathon pace, or much marathon pace or faster on tired legs. Most people do tempos at half marathon pace, but not a lot are putting in real volume at 10k pace, critical velocity or whatever you want to call it.
It is important for your training and suffering to be marathon-specific. A Canadian runner/coach talked nicely on his approach to this in his podcast.
self-coacher wrote:
Jack Daniels Koolade drinker wrote:
So, a workout of 4,3,2,1 miles at T pace would be 20,15,10,5 minutes for everyone but the elite would complete 10 hard miles but a runner running 7 minute miles would only complete about 7 miles.
It isn't hard to adapt Canova principles.
At the heart of things is the point, totally correct, is that most amateurs don't train "long hard" nearly enough.
Most amateurs are pretty good at going long and easy (everyone you see out for Sunday long run day), and pretty enthusiastic about going short and fast (400s or 1000s etc at 5k pace). But most runners and frankly many coaches are NOT good about calling for 10+ miles of marathon pace, or much marathon pace or faster on tired legs. Most people do tempos at half marathon pace, but not a lot are putting in real volume at 10k pace, critical velocity or whatever you want to call it.
It is important for your training and suffering to be marathon-specific. A Canadian runner/coach talked nicely on his approach to this in his podcast.
I agree with this completely. I know mostly 2:50-2:30 marathon guys. They all do 1 workout of either short/fast stuff or 1 or 2mile repeats at HM pace. The other big day is a 18-22 mile run at 6:30-7:00 pace. There isn't much else in there. It's basically a combo of 90's style intervals and LSD.
Cuckoo-Land wrote:
Tonkotsu wrote:
Since when was 2:20 decent? You would get destroyed at most marathons.
You mean most non-US marathons.... 30th in recent NYM ran 2.31'....
Guy is not talking elite so 2:20-2:40 is decent for the average joe with a job, a family and a lot of life's commitments... but of course this is letsrun....
If you are trying to follow a Canova system you better be committed. If you are trying to be a decent runner and run "decent" times then why move the goalpost back to 2:30+? Decent isn't even 2:20 and saying you have commitment issues is a cop out. Just admit you are running for fun only at that point....not trying to be competitive.
The fun runners in Japan and Kenya absolutely destroy weak western runners. Thank goodness this Norwegian fellow decided to get committed
recently.
Tonkotsu wrote:
If you are trying to follow a Canova system you better be committed. If you are trying to be a decent runner and run "decent" times then why move the goalpost back to 2:30+? Decent isn't even 2:20 and saying you have commitment issues is a cop out. Just admit you are running for fun only at that point....not trying to be competitive.
The fun runners in Japan and Kenya absolutely destroy weak western runners. Thank goodness this Norwegian fellow decided to get committed
recently.
I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but whatever.
(1) Canova's principles are adaptable to a pretty wide range of commitment levels. Sure, it probably doesn't make sense for a 30-40 mpw recreational runner, but it's a perfectly sensible approach to training for most people in the BQ range. Just read Brad Hudson's book. It's basically Canova for recreational runners.
(2) For the overwhelming majority of people (99%+), 2:20 is utterly impossible. Commitment simply has nothing to do with it. I know plenty of people who train as hard or harder than many professionals (e.g., 120 mpw+, 20 mile MP runs) and can't break 2:30.
(3) There are no fun runners in Kenya.
(4) Fun runners in Japan are very slow, just like everywhere else.
(5) Japan does have a lot more competitive adult amateurs than the U.S., but even so, 2:30 gets you into Lake Biwa, and 2:35 gets you into Fukuoka. Qualifying for either is considered a great accomplishment in Japan.
If any Americans are using his system they must be doing something wrong...one runner under 2:10 this year? Not sure what the secret is but it appears there's some special secret sauce in there that helps his athletes survive the training if not directly aiding their performances.
ReadBetter wrote:
obsghp wrote:
is that it really doesn’t apply and wouldn’t work for any of us amateur athletes.
Wrong. Canova principles are universal, you simply need to adapt to your situation.
If you read documents widely circulated online in the past like the training for kenyan juniores you will find same principles applied with lighter intensity. Focus is always on extending both volume and intensity gradually and modulating efforts/paces.
Where are these Kenyan junuior training?
self-coacher wrote:
Jack Daniels Koolade drinker wrote:
So, a workout of 4,3,2,1 miles at T pace would be 20,15,10,5 minutes for everyone but the elite would complete 10 hard miles but a runner running 7 minute miles would only complete about 7 miles.
It isn't hard to adapt Canova principles.
At the heart of things is the point, totally correct, is that most amateurs don't train "long hard" nearly enough.
Most amateurs are pretty good at going long and easy (everyone you see out for Sunday long run day), and pretty enthusiastic about going short and fast (400s or 1000s etc at 5k pace). But most runners and frankly many coaches are NOT good about calling for 10+ miles of marathon pace, or much marathon pace or faster on tired legs. Most people do tempos at half marathon pace, but not a lot are putting in real volume at 10k pace, critical velocity or whatever you want to call it.
It is important for your training and suffering to be marathon-specific. A Canadian runner/coach talked nicely on his approach to this in his podcast.
Which podcast?
2:20 isn’t “decent” in Japan yet 2:24 is the “elite” standard for men at the Tokyo marathon. Obviously a troll but an obnoxious one either way.
TokyoElite wrote:
2:20 isn’t “decent” in Japan yet 2:24 is the “elite” standard for men at the Tokyo marathon. Obviously a troll but an obnoxious one either way.
I suppose speaking the truth is trolling now. Oh well. Of course they have a slower entry standard, they want people to enter so the swarms of sub 2:20 Japanese men can beat up on some people in the elite fields.
Nippon guy wrote:
Tonkotsu wrote:
Very defensive. Long winded reply. In Japan 2;20 is not good at all. Regardless, I don't believe you when you say most decent runners use Canova's system. Most people train along more linear lines.
That was a good one! 10 points from me.
And 10 from me. Who of the "decent runners" uses to run 40 or even 45 k at close to marathon pace as a long run in the last few weeks prior race day?
self-coacher wrote:
Jack Daniels Koolade drinker wrote:
So, a workout of 4,3,2,1 miles at T pace would be 20,15,10,5 minutes for everyone but the elite would complete 10 hard miles but a runner running 7 minute miles would only complete about 7 miles.
It isn't hard to adapt Canova principles.
At the heart of things is the point, totally correct, is that most amateurs don't train "long hard" nearly enough.
Most amateurs are pretty good at going long and easy (everyone you see out for Sunday long run day), and pretty enthusiastic about going short and fast (400s or 1000s etc at 5k pace). But most runners and frankly many coaches are NOT good about calling for 10+ miles of marathon pace, or much marathon pace or faster on tired legs. Most people do tempos at half marathon pace, but not a lot are putting in real volume at 10k pace, critical velocity or whatever you want to call it.
It is important for your training and suffering to be marathon-specific. A Canadian runner/coach talked nicely on his approach to this in his podcast.
BUMP
Which podcast?
Let's throw the name and implications of Canova out the window, narrow the scope to just the marathon event, and identify the broader principles at play in these programs. Canova borrowed from Rosa, who borrowed from Gigliotti, etc, so... Also, let's please not lift Brad Hudson or Scott Simmons to this same pedestal. I too can read a forum post and claim to be "using a Canova system. "
1) High Running Volumes at Moderate Intensities between 80-95% of MP, relative to ability level and lifestyle factors
2) Adequate faster running between roughly HM and 10K pace to raise/maintain aerobic power levels
3) Fast sprints on a weekly basis for fast twitch fiber recruitment, key to late race utilization
4) Appropriate rest following key sessions
5) The occasional "big day" every 3-4 weeks to challenge the body and spur adaptation (ie- a special or specific block)
6) Challenging long runs nearing goal race duration that include some running between 95-105% of target pace, either as a long tempo or alternation session; 25K+ is specific work; roughly every two weeks
For the amateur runner and sub-elite marathoner, these basic principles can still be applied. We obviously can't run 120mls+ a week and lie about all day (most of us) with jobs and responsibilities, but we can run slightly more than our last training cycle, run faster than our last training cycle, recover better between sessions, and extend time spent at marathon pace. Genetics and talent will dictate our microcycle length, and our ultimate marathon potential. But, it is probably significantly higher than we expect.
-Peyton Hoyal
Sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf wrote:
He repeatedly says that his system is intended for elite athletes.
And repeatedly leaves out that it's intended for doped elite athletes.
PeytonH wrote:
Let's throw the name and implications of Canova out the window, narrow the scope to just the marathon event, and identify the broader principles at play in these programs. Canova borrowed from Rosa, who borrowed from Gigliotti, etc, so... Also, let's please not lift Brad Hudson or Scott Simmons to this same pedestal. I too can read a forum post and claim to be "using a Canova system. "
1) High Running Volumes at Moderate Intensities between 80-95% of MP, relative to ability level and lifestyle factors
2) Adequate faster running between roughly HM and 10K pace to raise/maintain aerobic power levels
3) Fast sprints on a weekly basis for fast twitch fiber recruitment, key to late race utilization
4) Appropriate rest following key sessions
5) The occasional "big day" every 3-4 weeks to challenge the body and spur adaptation (ie- a special or specific block)
6) Challenging long runs nearing goal race duration that include some running between 95-105% of target pace, either as a long tempo or alternation session; 25K+ is specific work; roughly every two weeks
For the amateur runner and sub-elite marathoner, these basic principles can still be applied. We obviously can't run 120mls+ a week and lie about all day (most of us) with jobs and responsibilities, but we can run slightly more than our last training cycle, run faster than our last training cycle, recover better between sessions, and extend time spent at marathon pace. Genetics and talent will dictate our microcycle length, and our ultimate marathon potential. But, it is probably significantly higher than we expect.
-Peyton Hoyal
Very well said