Training Log for a 2:30ish Boston Marathon 2018

What's so tough about 4x3200 @ HM? It's boring enough to be a mental workout, but it's only 60% of a half with rests inserted. The only issue I have with it is the volume on a track, which can beat you up. It's not the be all end all marathon workout, but it has its place on occasion, and I wouldn't have an issue doing that plus a hard long run in the same week.

Ho Hum wrote:

What's so tough about 4x3200 @ HM? It's boring enough to be a mental workout, but it's only 60% of a half with rests inserted. The only issue I have with it is the volume on a track, which can beat you up. It's not the be all end all marathon workout, but it has its place on occasion, and I wouldn't have an issue doing that plus a hard long run in the same week.

Like Sage Canaday often mentions on the boards, MP and HMP become much more difficult to hit in practice as you get faster. 4x2mi at HMP is a tough workout. Not the toughest workout, but still tough. Personally I prefer uninterrupted tempos as it boosts confidence for me, but by doing 4x2mi you're able to get 8mi of LT work where in a standard tempo you'd probably stop around 6mi. I've read that it doesn't make much difference to take some breaks during tempo workouts, but I still will do them the way I've done them before.

reed wrote:

Like Sage Canaday often mentions on the boards, MP and HMP become much more difficult to hit in practice as you get faster. 4x2mi at HMP is a tough workout.

Is this really true? My gut feeling says otherwise, but I am not sure.

Let's compare a 2:30 marathoner and a 3:30 guy.

If both do a workout of 8 miles at MP, the 3:30 guy will have to work a lot longer because he is slower, while the faster runner will complete his workout a lot sooner.

On the other hand, if the workout is 1 hour at MP, it would assume it is easier for the slower guy, because running for 1 hour at a pace you can hold 3 hours 30 minutes seems easier than running 1 hour at a pace you can only sustain 2 hours.

It's absolutely true. My wife and I are a perfect example of this.

Me: 2:30 marathoner (2:28:40 goal based on other race times), so my threshold pace is about 5:24 and my marathon pace is 5:40, with a typical easy distance pace of 7:00.

Wife: 3:30 marathoner with a threshold pace of about 7:20 and a marathon pace of 8:00, and a typical easy distance pace of 8:25-8:30.

It is not uncommon for my wife,on a good day, to unintentionally hit marathon pace as part of an easy run, because there is only a :25-:30 difference between those paces. Her marathon pace is also a significantly lower percentage of her threshold pace. She cranked out her 13 miles at marathon pace with good, strong efforts but was never crushed by them. She was :40 away from her threshold pace while doing them.

I never come anywhere near marathon pace in training because it's :80 seconds away from my normal easy distance pace and a minute away from the faster end of my predicted easy pace based on VDOT calculations. When running at marathon pace, I'm about 15 to 20 seconds from threshold pace. I struggle with everyone marathon paced run unless I sign up for a half and run it in a race setting.

Smoove, if I read it right you've recently done a 4x3200 w/ 2:00 min rest averaging the same pace that you hit in your recent half-marathon. I wonder if you use this workout as your race pace predictor.

It's been a while since I don't run a competitive Half-Marathon, which I will be doing in two weeks (Barcelona). I've done the same workout that you did, but not so fast, just under 11 min. I rested about 2:30-40, though it was an active rest (slow lap at the track).

Right now my plan is to aim hitting that pace for a final time of under 1h13.

My PR is 1h11:50 but I know I am not there yet.

It ended up a touch faster than my half pace, but it wasn't intended as a predictor workout and it was really only indirectly tied to my half pace in that it was intended to be at my Daniels-determined LT pace, which turns out to be awfully close to my half pace.

As a general matter, I can find races fairly frequently, so I rarely use workouts to predict or even estimate fitness. Instead, I find a race and lace them up and use that to guide my goals in future races (using my experience to help estimate fitness gains likey to accrue between the baseline race and the goal race).

I hope you all had good weeks. I ran a bit less this week to give my legs a bit rest but started to lengthen my long run today as it had been quite some time that I've run two hours in one shot. Ran 18+ hilly miles at 6:22 avg. How long/how fast are you guys doing your long runs usually?

Happy running!

My 20 miler was at 6:47 pace yesterday. I tend to keep them at easy distance pace, although that pace can vary from an average from the mid 6:30s to 7:10s. Usually closer to 7:00 pace.

Yesterday was a pretty decent effort as it was warm (72) and windy (15-17 mph) and I ran on a soft and hilly (for Florida) course. I mostly wanted it to be over.

https://imgur.com/a/29UnA

I had a very solid week overall. Two workouts, a long run, and good overall volume. Now if I could just repeat that a few dozen times in a row...

M 8 easy wirh last 2mi on my new treadmill at 10% grade, just jogging.

T 8 w/ 4x1k at 10k pace + 5x30sec hills. avg 3:18s, but harder than 10k pace for sure. 90sec rest, easy workout

W 9 easy

Th 10 w/ 12x1min at 5:05s, 1min easy. 3rd repeat was 2min because why not. pace felt much easier than it has lately

F 10 total, 5 + 5 double

Sa 22 miles, 3h11m, 3500'. bad day for me out there but sometimes that's what happens. this was basically a "worst case scenario" for how I might feel during my 50k in a few weeks.

Su 10+ very easy on trails, no big hills but still 900-1000' of climbing

total 78 miles, 10h36min running, 7000' climbing

Two easy workouts and a brutal long run. Highest mileage of last 12 weeks or so. Still need to do more tempo paced efforts so will try to add something early this week.

10k race next Sunday, goal is probably to run about 33:00-33:20 assuming there's no tactical reason to do otherwise. I still want to hit over 70 miles so I'll probably just ease off on the easy runs while front-loading a little bit.

Hey Smoove, that road looks so beautiful. Almost a little bit like those peaceful trails in Kenya! I tend to progress my long runs usually a bit more than my normal distance runs but that might not be optimal. I've just always liked to more "hammer" them, it's just fun. I read your cramping probs and you should definitely try to cut out some more beers the night before hard workouts. In my whole life I had one serious muscular injury and it came the day after some drinking in a track session. When I went to college and there were many fast runners we usually would reserve our beers for the night after the workouts. That might not be optimal for performance, too (oh well) but it didn't directly tire you out for the hard session. Just my two cents. In any case try salt tablets if you haven't already!

Reed, great week... really coming along! Although I'm still way off of my PR shape I'm pretty motivated and this thread definitely fuels my fire a bit... So have a great new week, too.

Thanks for the reply, that makes sense.

Been following this thread with interest and really appreciate the input and discussion from all (Smoove, Reed, etc.).

I'm currently training for my first marathon in April - goal 2.30-2.35. Loving the challenge of a new goal so far, but as this is so different in nature to the usual 5k/10k cycle, I would love to know people's thoughts on the following:

- How do you progress your long-runs towards race specificity?

- How does this progression feel (a natural progression? increasingly hard?)?

- How do these progressively more specific runs relate to actually running the marathon on race day?

So far my training each week has generally included one progressively longer long-run (now up to 22 miles, mostly comfortable pace picking up towards the end down to 6.10-20 pace), a medium-long run ~15 miles as general aerobic mileage, and another medium-long total run (~13-14 miles) incorporating work at LT/Tempo/5k pace surges etc.

However, looking ahead, when I look at something like '20 miles with 10@MP' or '22 miles with 15@MP' on paper I gulp - I just can't imagine how that feels to do as a training run (despite being comfortable with the total distance, and knowing I can run 13.1 miles at a faster pace).

Any thoughts or advice?

Well, to the extent that I progress my long runs over the course of a training cycle, it starts off with my normal 14-16 miles early, then it goes up to an 18 miler near the start of the main part of the training cycle. After that, it becomes a matter of alternating between straight long runs (run at only easy distance pace), TLT runs (long runs with a tempo portion mixed in, usually in the beginning and at the end, but just at the beginning at the very start of the cycle), and marathon paced runs.

The first step in that progression is a 2 mile warm up, 4-6 x 1 mile at tempo pace with a minute rest, 8-10 miles easy for a total of 16 miles or so. I then go to an 18 mile straight run, then a 20 mile straight run, then a TLT with 2 miles up, 4 x 1 mile at tempo w/1:00 rest, 10 miles easy, 15 minutes at tempo effort, cool down to 20 (that is what I have on the books for this weekend). Then I go to my first run at marathon pace, which is 2 up, 13 at MP, 2 down for a total of 17. It is hard to see in this format, but the essence of the progression is to get used to the straight distance first, then work in tempo at the same or a slightly shorter distance, then increase the distance again, then work in tempo at that now increased distance.

The 13 at marathon pace is really rough, and I have discovered the best way to make these feel manageable is to find a half-marathon race to sign up for and run at marathon pace. Being in a race setting, with closed roads, clocks, water on the course, competitors, etc. just makes it a ton easier. I try to do 3 of these runs per cycle, and I have always done at least one of them as part of a half marathon, and I would prefer to do all 3 that way. I would say that finding a half to do the MP runs in is the best piece of advice that I could give you.

I'd disagree with Smoove about entering a half marathon as a training run. There's temptation to run faster because it's a race, and running too fast can be detrimental to your upcoming training. Plus, doing the 12-14mi or whatever by yourself is a good confidence booster. The best case scenario is to do these workouts with company, although that's not always easy to do.

So the long run progression depends on your recent training. Before my last marathon I hadn't been doing runs over 14 miles or so for months, or at least not regularly. My first LR was about 10 weeks out, 17 miles easy. I had intended it to have maybe 4-6mi at MP but I wasn't feeling good so didn't. I think 16-17mi is a good starting point for long runs as it may be farther than you're used to but won't kill you either way.

After that I basically added a mile or so each week, with a couple weeks dropping down to 16-17 again if I had raced on Saturday (xc series). On the days following xc races I ran by feel, which usually meant about ten miles easy and then progressing down to around 6min pace for a few miles. I considered those my "easy" long runs. Come to think of it, I didn't do many long runs that were easy the whole time. One 20-miler only had a few miles under 6:20 and that first 17er was about the same. All the other long runs had some miles at MP, but not a lot of miles at MP. 7 weeks out I did 18 w/ 2x5mi MP and 3 weeks out I did 21 w/ 14 at MPish. Never did more than 5 miles at MP any other time, not including longer workouts that were alternating pace or something and ended up averaging around MP.

As for being afraid of those upcoming MP workouts, don't be. A mile repeat session or a tempo is physically a lot tougher than holding MP for ten miles. If it's that hard to hold MP in training, maybe you overestimated your fitness.

I guess this illustrates how different people with different strengths and weaknesses need different approaches to training and feel differently with the same workouts. There is no way on Earth that a tempo effort is anywhere near as challenging for me as a long run at marathon pace. Your response might be that I have felt that way because I overestimated my fitness, but I have chosen those paces based on recent race results and came reasonably close enough in my marathons (given the courses and weather conditions) to have validated those selections. Again, I am not saying you are wrong, but you are wrong with respect to my subjective experience and, apparently, with respect to OP's.

As to using a half as a training tool, again people can view that different ways. You say it is too easy to run it too fast, I say it is an opportunity to practice the kind of discipline that you will need to employ on race day when the first 18 miles (hopefully) feel like they are being run at a recreational pace. You say doing them solo is a good confidence booster, which makes sense because they are relatively easy for you. I say failing to hit the desired pace could be detrimental to your confidence, which makes sense since they can be so challenging for me.

Again, not saying you are wrong, just saying the context of each person's strengths and weaknesses add important color to the analysis.

I am a little late to the party, but I figured I'd chime in. I am not shooting for a 2:30 as that is beyond my talent level, but I am trying to reach my potential for sure.

I'll start from the beginning.

17 Weeks out - Dec 18

Q 1- 10 x 1:1

Q 2 - 45 mins @ 90% MP

Long run 14 Miles

70 miles

16 Weeks Out - Dec 25

Q1- 6 miles of 2:2

Long run - 16 miles

80 miles

15 Weeks out - Jan 1

Q1 - 5 x 1.25 miles @ Half - 15k pace + 8 x 30:30

Q2 - 8 x 1 miles @ MP w/ 800 moderate

90 miles

14 Weeks out - Jan 8

Q1 - 2 x (10 x 400) w/ 1 min + 8 x 15 w/ full recovery

Q2 - 20 k alternating (1km @ Threshold / 1 km moderate)

100 miles

13 Weeks out - Jan 15

Q 1- 6 miles @ 90-100% MP + 8 x 1 minute hills w/ 3-4'

Q2 - 8 mile moderate + 17 x 1 min:1min + 3 miles @ MP

100 miles

12 Weeks out - Jan 22

Q1 - 4 x 2 miles threshold

Q 2 - 5 x (3k @ MP / 1k moderate)

110 miles

liking_this_thread wrote:

However, looking ahead, when I look at something like '20 miles with 10@MP' or '22 miles with 15@MP' on paper I gulp - I just can't imagine how that feels to do as a training run (despite being comfortable with the total distance, and knowing I can run 13.1 miles at a faster pace).

Any thoughts or advice?

Finding a training partner(s) is a huge help but if not a race is probably the next best option. Either way company can turn these daunting efforts into less daunting efforts. You could also add in the @MP portion earlier in the run. You won't get the same training effect as placing it at the end, but when you start the MP portion can change the difficulty of the run from intimidating to maybe a little boring.

Given that you're new to this, you'll probably need to do some experimenting to find your own sweet spot.

Updating the thread a bit. Assuming I get my 12 in tomorrow, I'll hit my scheduled 81 miles after a 90 mile week last week. One double, 6 days of singles. Workouts were

2 up, 4 x 1600 w/1:00 rest (5:18 avg), 5 min jog rest, 3 x 1600 w/1:00 rest (5:17 avg), 1.5 down for 11 total

2 up, 4 x 1 mile over a highway overpass (5:15, 5:19, 5:19, 5:30) w/69, :60, :90 rest, 10 miles easy, then attempted 3-4 miles at marathon pace, but paid the price for screwing up the first set of cruise miles, so packed it in and finished with another 3-4 of easy distance for 20 total.

Haha didn't expect so much disagreement on the perceived effort of MP.

Maybe I'm just running my tempos too hard? a 33:20 10k according to daniels is a 5:35/mi threshold pace. I've gotta be close to that (will find out 100% tomorrow as I'm racing a 10k). That's a bit more aggressive then I'd have guessed.

I'll post my week in full detail tomorrow but I did 2mi tempo + 6x1min + 1mi hardish on tuesday, then a 20min mona fartlek on thursday averaging 5:37s