If you're interested, post here with your goal or any other relevant info. I'm not exactly training for Boston yet but would be down to start posting my weekly summaries on Sundays or Mondays.
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We've got a little over 18 weeks until Boston, folks. I'm starting to plan out my workouts and mileage progressions so I figured I'd see if anybody else had about the same goal as me for 2018, to break 2:30 (weather permitting).
If you're interested, post here with your goal or any other relevant info. I'm not exactly training for Boston yet but would be down to start posting my weekly summaries on Sundays or Mondays. -
I still haven't decided whether I am going to race Boston this year, but am leaning toward racing (maybe 70/30). If I do race, and get good weather, I might shoot for sub 2:30, although that is a tough course to run fast on unless you get a tailwind.
I haven't started to focus on Boston yet because I am racing a half marathon in January, so that would be my springboard into marathon training. -
Smoove wrote:
I still haven't decided whether I am going to race Boston this year, but am leaning toward racing (maybe 70/30). If I do race, and get good weather, I might shoot for sub 2:30, although that is a tough course to run fast on unless you get a tailwind.
I haven't started to focus on Boston yet because I am racing a half marathon in January, so that would be my springboard into marathon training.
I'm 100% in for Boston, although I guess not 100% as I don't have flights booked yet lol.
Anyway, I'm borderline about 2:29 but am going to go ahead with 5:43s as my goal pace while training. I'm not concerned with the difficulty of the course, I'm just concerned with the weather.
I have a 2:32 marathon PR set at the obviously aided CIM course last year. So I guess I have a "fake" PR according to lots of letsrunners. I guess that makes my legitimate PR 3:10:xx from the 2011 San Francisco Marathon, as my only other one also didn't meet IAAF standards (start/finish too far apart).
Anyway, I'm doing a fast/flat/uncompetitive 30k in early February so I'm technically training for that right now, not Boston. The goal would be to either run it at 2:29 pace or just to race it which would be in the 5:35-5:40 range probably. -
bump
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I'm training to run 2:39 there, but have to train like I am running a 2:30 because my genetics suck.
aka I will probably be doing all the training (high volume workouts, longer race specific stuff) a much faster person would, but at slower paces. -
Hoping for a spring marathon, but not Boston.
But really, I'm just replying to bump interest. These are exactly the kind of threads that can get super interesting and instructive. -
Nothing to add except that I like the idea of this thread - keep it going please.
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training for 2:29 vs 2:39 isn't all that different. For some people it's just a matter of being a couple years more experience. For other's it's just one race away.
I'm curious to see if there are people out there who took ~5min off their sub-2:40 marathons in less than 2 years. People who had already been running at a high level for years ideally. Maybe I just need the 4% shoes!
Anyway, for those just spectating in this thread, I'll try to post as much as is relevant. I like data and background info so I'll probably have lots of detail.
Last week I ran CIM as a 3:02 pacer. It was harder than I expected after mile 22ish, which seems reasonable in hindsight. I'm taking this week pretty easy to recover but will still hit about 60 miles and plan on doing a 2hr+ long run.
My background:
started running senior year of HS, 2011
ran a 3:10 marathon after 9mo of running, HS PRs 4:56/10:55, ~18min road 5k
ran another marathon in 2012, 2:54. had a 17:00ish 5k PR going into it, 80min half PR
started doing club xc/track and quickly got much faster, down to 15:40s in one season.
left college in 2015 with 15:28/25:39xc/33:10xc PRs plus a 74min half in there
In 2016 I didn't train much until the fall. In the spring of '16 I popped a 15:40ish 5k with little specific training on 70 mpw then ran some random trail races and ragnar-style relay races. In the fall I did a full 5-race xc season while marathon training for CIM. Sucked at XC, but was in good shape. Ran a 2:33ish marathon at CIM, 5:50/mi.
In 2017 I pretty much exclusively did trail races including 3 50ks (ranging from 3:47 to 4:41) and a lot of ~17 mile trail races plus a bunch of low key ~5mi trail races (in a series). I was training to run a 50 miler in November 2017 but got the flu the day before and pulled the plug. Paced CIM 3:02 group instead as I didn't feel like I was in marathon PR shape. maybe 2:37 shape as I ran a 15:57 5k on thanksgiving.
That leaves us at today. I'm doing another 50k trail race next weekend, hoping to just compete and see how hard I can push it. I wouldn't be considered the favorite to win but I want to hang with the leaders as long as possible. After that I'll switch my focus 100% to roads, racing a flat 30k in early February where I will try to run at least 2:29 marathon pace. After that I'll have about 9 weeks til Boston. -
I ran 2:30:52 back in 2015 just shy of my 44th birthday. I thought it might be worthwhile to post the quality days from my training for that training cycle. Mileage ranged form 55 to 100 mpw during this stretch. I just about broke down, so this log differs from my initial plan quite a bit, especially the last 3 weeks or so, when I mostly shut things down to avoid serious burnout.
5 x1200 @ 5k pace w/3:00 active rest
2 x 1600 (4:59 5:08), 3:30 passive rest; 3 x 1000 (3:12-3:13) 3:00 passive rest
3 miles up, 4 miles tempo (5:38.5), 3 miles down
4 x mile (treadmill/track) 5:07 (4:00 active), 5:07 (transition to track), 5:14 (4:52), 5:04
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1600m (5:22.6) cruise intervals; 8 miles easy
18.5 miles easy
4th of July 4 miler (20:28)
6 x 1000 @ 3:08 with 3:00 active rest
2.75 mile warm up; 2 x 2 mile cruise intervals (5:27, 5:21; 2:00; 5:19, 5:31); 7 miles easy
6 x 1200 @ 3:40.65 w/3:00 active rest
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1 mile with 1:00 rest (5:17 (t), 5:12 (r), 5:20 (t), 5:17 (r), 5:19 (t); 8 miles easy
2 miles up; 4 x 2 miles tempo - 10:48 (LD)(2:02); 10:53 (G)(2:20); 11:10 (G)(2:57); 11:12 (LD); 2 miles down
21 miles easy
2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile (5:15, 5:08, 5:13, 5:12) w/1:00 rest; 5:00 rest; 3 x 1 mile (5:14, 5:14, 5:14) w/1:00 rest; 2 mi down
2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile (5:24, 5:04, 5:13, 5:07) w/:60-:80 rest; 8 mi easy; 20 min tempo (5:25); 2.3 down
2 mi up; 3 mi tempo (5:11, 5:26, 5:26); 3:00 rest; 3 mi tempo (5:12, 5:19, 5:42); 3:00 rest; 1 mi tempo (5:29); 1:30 rest; 1 mi tempo (5:25)
ABORTED MARATHON PACED RUN: 2 mile warm up; 6 miles @ marathon pace (5:35); 6 miles easy
5k (15:28.5)
20.25 miles easy
2 mi up; 7 x 1 mile at tempo (5:26, 5:23, 5:23, 5:25, 5:25, 5:27, 5:25, 5:33) (5:26 avg) w/1:00 rest; 3.75 down
2 mile warm up; 2 x 2 mi tempo w/2:00 rest (10:27.8, 10:42.7); 10.25 easy; 2 mi tempo (11:03); 3.75 easy
2 mi up; 3 x 2 mile tempo [(10:53.5), (11:02.2), (11:06)] w/2:00 rest, 2 x 1 mile tempo (5:32.4, 5:28.3) w/1:00 rest; 2 mi down
2 mi up; 9 mi @ mp (5:42); 3:00 rest; 2mi @ mp (5:40); 2:00 rest; 1 mi @ mp (5:46?); 2 mi down
Aborted tempo - 8 miles easy
22 miles easy
8.75 mi up; 6 x 1 mi [5:22, (1:00), 5:19 (1:00), 5:24 (1:00), 5:31 (3:00), 5:25 (2:00), 5:28]; 1.25 down
5k (16:09)
11 miles total; 5 x Lake Davis moderate
13.1 miles @ marathon pace (1:15:35) - felt like half marathon race effort
3 miles easy, 2 miles tempo (5:20, 5:28 - was supposed to be 3), 2 miles easy, 1 mile tempo (was supposed to be 3 - 5:33 was 5k race pace), 5 miles easy
22 miles easy
1.5 up; 3 x 1 mile tempo (5:22 (1:00), 5:28 (:90), 5:33 (:90) .5 uphill at 5:40); .75 down
Accelerating pace run (6:45, 6:31, 6:15, 5:50, 5:36, 5:29, 6:51, 6:53, 6:59, 7:12)
2.25 mi up; 4 x 1200 @ tempo pace (3:57, 3:52, 3:57, 3:55) w/2:00 rest; 1 mi down -
Smoove, I appreciate the time you took to write all that. Looks like you did a ton of work around 5:15 pace to 5:30 pace, for what appeared to be a goal pace of 5:40ish. Doesn't look like you did much faster than ~5min pace or did much in the 5:40-5:50 range. Not sure if that was your problem or not but maybe you just got sick of running ~5:20 pace.
My plan is to have a bigger variety of workouts, with much much less on the track. (volume = ~70-100 mpw, hoping to average 85 for 8 weeks before boston taper)
I'll post a slew of my planned workouts. Keep in mind that I'm coming off a year of 50k trail training so my speed is pretty poor and I'm not very efficient under 6:00/mi yet.
(starting in early january, a couple weeks after my 50k)
4mi tempo, 4x800. comfortable on tempo, uncomfortable for 800s.
3x2mi 11:10 down to 10:50. 800m jog
60min ladder fartlek, paces all about tempo pace with offs in 6:20 range. should avg to ~MP for ~10mi
10x2min or 10x800, 2min rest. ~5:15 pace
8-10mi at MP after long warmup. ~18mi total
10mi alternating 5:30/6:00ish
20mi LR, start easy and progress down to 6:10ish pace or thereabouts. by feel!
6mi MP (easy workout)
12x1min on/off. pace 5:05ish or whatever feels fast
14-16mi w/ 3mi at 30k pace (a week before 30k race)
easy fartlek mid-week.
(february begins around here, so ~11-12 weeks out from boston)
30k race. either race it or aim for MP
In the interest of saving time, I'll just summarize the rest. Many of the workouts are the same, but hopefully a little longer or faster than I could do in January. I'll do more track workouts to prepare for a couple shorter races. I'll also do some ~3hr long trail runs on hilly routes, because I plan to keep racing trail/ultras after this marathon. -
My near burnout was a result of increased volume. I had an 8 week stretch where I averaged 80 mpw, and hit peaks of 91.5 and 100 in that stretch. My previous high for an 8 week stretch was 69.5 miles and my previous highest mileage week was 80. So this represented a big step up in volume for me. It almost turned out to be too big of a step up, but it panned out on race day, fortunately.
Yep, most of my work - except for the initial 6 week stretch that emphasized vo2max pace - was right at tempo (targeted mid 5:20s, but in practice jumped around a bit) pace for cycle. In fact, the last 12 weeks, other than my 3 marathon paced runs and shorter races, that was the only targeted pace. The theory behind that is to lower your lactate threshold so that you can stay aerobic and faster and faster speeds, which, of course, is the entire point of the marathon - to run as fast as possible while essentially staying aerobic. I am not good enough to have to worry about racing for position, so I didn't worry about having to do vo2max pace or anything particularly fast since I knew I wouldn't be throwing in or responding to surges. Instead, it was all about improving my lactate threshold. -
Sunday 2 hours steady
Monday through Saturday am 1 hour easy jogging pm 1 to 1.5 of hour running
Basic schedule look up Bill Rodgers training log -
Smoove wrote:
I am not good enough to have to worry about racing for position, so I didn't worry about having to do vo2max pace or anything particularly fast since I knew I wouldn't be throwing in or responding to surges. Instead, it was all about improving my lactate threshold.
sorry but I don't think vo2max work is just for responding to surges in the marathon. it's about efficiency over all paces. The only times I've ignored vo2max style workouts was for ultramarathon training but thats because I had major weaknesses in muscular endurance (basically hills late in the race) so I focused on that instead of efficiency and speed. -
I don't think you were actually apologizing, which is okay because principled disagreement is nothing for which to apologize. That's the whole point of threads like this, right? To have a thoughtful discussion of training principles.
My view is that since the marathon is almost exclusively an aerobic event, vo2max is not a direct limiting factor in performance. So the natural follow up question is, why would I emphasize something that is not a direct limiting factor on my performance in my goal race? I think your suggestion is that work at vo2max pace addresses indirect limiting factors, in this case "efficiency" which I think means the same things as what I think of as "running economy."
I have no qualms with that position. I just think that running economy can be addressed in a number of ways. First off, there is the 6 week block of vo2max work done in the early part of my cycle. Secondly, there are the races at the 5k to 10k distances during the last 12 weeks of the cycle that are functionally vo2max maintenance work. Third, strides are (or at least are supposed to be) a regular part of my warm up routine and those are a great influencer of running economy. Fourth, even threshold pace has some vo2max benefit, it is just not as efficient at improving vo2max as traditional intervals; and when you consider that much of the threshold pace work comes via cruise intervals (which, as practical matter, tend to run fast - somewhere faster than 15k pace sometimes), that vo2max maintenance benefit is even greater. Finally, getting in some hilly running also has a running economy benefit.
So I don't think that I ignore running economy at all, it is just not an emphasis during the last 12 weeks of my training cycle. So I don't think the indirect benefit of improved running economy justifies an emphasis on vo2max workouts in those last 12 weeks (especially given the emphasis earlier in the training cycle and the races throughout the cycle) since that indirect benefit can be achieved via other less stressful (strides, hill work) or as a secondary benefit of work that is more directly beneficial to the event (threshold intervals, hills again). Plus, if you take the thought to its logical end, the desire to work on running economy as a primary benefit would arguably result in some emphasis on shorter, faster reps (200s/400s at mile pace).
So that eliminates that indirect benefit for me. I've already talked about the lack of a need to throw in or respond to surges. Another indirect benefit would be increases in overall running fitness - I get that thought, but think the 6 week block early addresses it. You might also want the psychological benefit of running at a pace that makes your other work, particularly your race, feel more pedestrian. Interim races achieve that to some degree, as does the initial block; plus, threshold pace is about 15-20 seconds per mile faster than marathon pace, so I am getting a ton of work at a pace that should make marathon pace feel very manageable on race day. -
There is nothing special about VO2 max PACE or its impact on VO2 max... Different paces are just different stressors on your system that help your body to adapt. VO2 max is simply the maximum amount of oxygen that your body can consume when you are running your hardest. All training paces help to increase VO2 max, which is really a fuction of capillary density, mitochondrial density, cardiac output, and muscle fiber type. VO2 max PACE is a rather arbitrarily defined pace, around 3k to 5k pace. During a 3k or 5k, your VO2 is likely equaling your VO2 max, ie you are consuming as much oxygen as you possibly can, although this happens at a wide range of race distances.
Running faster, harder intervals is an efficient way to increase VO2, assuming the athlete has a sufficient running background and reasonable mileage. However, there are a limited number of successful hard workouts an athlete can do in a training cycle before there is a risk of burnout.
VO2 is just a metric, not a pace, and having a higher VO2 does not mean that you can only run faster at VO2 max pace. A higher VO2 means that one or more of your other physiological metrics is higher, which means that your are more efficient at ALL paces (assuming your running economy doesn't decrease). Ultimately, VO2 max impacts the lactate threshold, which is the singular metric that determines physiological running capacity.
Defining lactate threshold is important here. I'll consider it to be the pace at which an athlete begins to exceed their lactate inflection point over a given time interval (i.e., how fast do you have to run for 10 min for lactate to build up in your system).
There are a few other important factors to consider when it comes to the marathon, however: running economy at different paces and fueling. These two factors are why long runs and long tempos are vital to the marathon. Depleting your glycogen stores during a long run or tempo will teach your body to store more glycogen and burn more fat during a marathon. Running farther at fast paces will teach your body to run more efficiently at those paces by slimming you down and optimizing your form. By optimizing your form, I mean that your body will redistribute muscle mass so that less important muscles are comparatively smaller and more important muscles are larger, to optimize force transduction to the ground without having excessive muscle mass. -
I'm not nearly at your guy's level but am running my first Boston and aiming for 2:48. I just wanted to tag along on this thread, pick up some tips and have somewhere to share my training
So far I've been averaging 65mpw over the past six weeks with few workouts. I'm focusing on base right now.
Looking forward to hearing how you guys are training -
georgiarunner17 wrote:
There is nothing special about VO2 max PACE or its impact on VO2 max... Different paces are just different stressors on your system that help your body to adapt. VO2 max is simply the maximum amount of oxygen that your body can consume when you are running your hardest. All training paces help to increase VO2 max, which is really a fuction of capillary density, mitochondrial density, cardiac output, and muscle fiber type. VO2 max PACE is a rather arbitrarily defined pace, around 3k to 5k pace. During a 3k or 5k, your VO2 is likely equaling your VO2 max, ie you are consuming as much oxygen as you possibly can, although this happens at a wide range of race distances.
Running faster, harder intervals is an efficient way to increase VO2, assuming the athlete has a sufficient running background and reasonable mileage. However, there are a limited number of successful hard workouts an athlete can do in a training cycle before there is a risk of burnout.
VO2 is just a metric, not a pace, and having a higher VO2 does not mean that you can only run faster at VO2 max pace. A higher VO2 means that one or more of your other physiological metrics is higher, which means that your are more efficient at ALL paces (assuming your running economy doesn't decrease). Ultimately, VO2 max impacts the lactate threshold, which is the singular metric that determines physiological running capacity.
Defining lactate threshold is important here. I'll consider it to be the pace at which an athlete begins to exceed their lactate inflection point over a given time interval (i.e., how fast do you have to run for 10 min for lactate to build up in your system).
There are a few other important factors to consider when it comes to the marathon, however: running economy at different paces and fueling. These two factors are why long runs and long tempos are vital to the marathon. Depleting your glycogen stores during a long run or tempo will teach your body to store more glycogen and burn more fat during a marathon. Running farther at fast paces will teach your body to run more efficiently at those paces by slimming you down and optimizing your form. By optimizing your form, I mean that your body will redistribute muscle mass so that less important muscles are comparatively smaller and more important muscles are larger, to optimize force transduction to the ground without having excessive muscle mass.
You seem to be arguing against nobody. Smoove and I both know what vo2max is and isn't. What we are discussing is whether training in the pace zone that is casually referred to as vo2max (basically 3k to 8k pace) is helpful for a marathoner in the last 12 weeks.
I could care less about what type of runs raise your vo2max or which do it better, but I do know that your efficiency/running economy (same thing) greatly benefits when you do "speedwork" that is faster than lactate threshold/tempo pace. Smoove, I wasn't aware that you had done 6 weeks of vo2max stuff before the 12 week marathon-specific cycle. That is all I need to know really.
For me, I've been neglecting vo2max and even lactate threshold efforts for most of the year (except when pushing some hard uphills) so I believe it needs to be somewhat of a focus for me to be capable of running 2:29 by April. For my body right now, I don't believe I need to focus AS MUCH on glycogen depletion/fat burning and that side of training. Of course I will not skip my long runs or anything, but that isn't a weakness for me right now. -
I went from 2:36 at boston to 2:30 at Chicago in one year
The next year I ran 2:27 at twin cities.
I would say getting down to 2:30 below required more consistency in training, If you have a string of bad workouts its ok, just keep plodding through. I ran a lot of 90-100 mile weeks with a few peak weeks above.
Most of my long runs were around 18 miles except for a 4 week progression where I would run up to 23-24 miles. I wouldnt worry too much about pace, just get out there.
On the 18 milers I would try to finish strong with the last few miles at marathon pace.
Tempos are important, an I think it helps to do some on your own. 4-8 miles at close to half marathon race pace.
We did some good marathon workouts as a group where we would start on the track and do 2-3 miles at MP then run a hard 10-12 miles then finish th last 2-4 miles on the track cutting down to 5:00 mile. -
Yep, it might be hard to tell but these first six weeks were mostly v02max workouts.
5 x1200 @ 5k pace w/3:00 active rest
2 x 1600 (4:59 5:08), 3:30 passive rest; 3 x 1000 (3:12-3:13) 3:00 passive rest
3 miles up, 4 miles tempo (5:38.5), 3 miles down
4 x mile (treadmill/track) 5:07 (4:00 active), 5:07 (transition to track), 5:14 (4:52), 5:04
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1600m (5:22.6) cruise intervals; 8 miles easy
18.5 miles easy
4th of July 4 miler (20:28)
6 x 1000 @ 3:08 with 3:00 active rest
2.75 mile warm up; 2 x 2 mile cruise intervals (5:27, 5:21; 2:00; 5:19, 5:31); 7 miles easy
6 x 1200 @ 3:40.65 w/3:00 active rest
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1 mile with 1:00 rest (5:17 (t), 5:12 (r), 5:20 (t), 5:17 (r), 5:19 (t); 8 miles easy
2 miles up; 4 x 2 miles tempo - 10:48 (LD)(2:02); 10:53 (G)(2:20); 11:10 (G)(2:57); 11:12 (LD); 2 miles down -
I am running Boston, intending to run 2:19 OTQ pace for as long as my legs let me. I realize Boston isn't the most ideal place to go for it, but I'm so close to the qualifier that it there is no point for me to shoot for anything else. My mileage progression from now through the race will look like this:
78 (week ending Sunday 12/10), 80, 95, 100, 90, 100, 110, 115, 100, 110, 120, 90, 85, 100 (half marathon), 110, 90, 90, 80, 70 (Boston)
Cheers and happy training to all.
