Should I do 90mpw this winter as a HS senior?

There's some missing information here: what have you run for 400/800? How long have you been running competitively? What year are you in high school? How many tempos/long runs did you incorporate into your summer training?

maybe the benefits of your 85 mpw took longer to realize than you give it credit for.

carson28 wrote:

Before you completely reject this idea, I’ll lay out a few things:

I’m not a talented runner. At all.

PR’s are 4:40 for 1600, 9:50 for 3200, 16:32 for 5k XC.

I had a disappointing xc season this year.

I want to have a really good performance in either the 3000m or 3200m.

I did up to 75mpw this summer + cross season which included some workouts.

The only injury I had this xc season (and the past year) was a mild strain from some speed workout.

Should I go for it? Mileage would be almost all base, but I’d mix in a couple workouts and faster runs, also strides 3x a week. Occasional doubles

If I were you I would go for it. Just do not be afraid to give your body breaks from time to time to adjust to the mileage.

I was in a similar situation in HS. I ran 75-85 MPW the summer before my senior year. I had prs of 16:06 and 9:58

summer mileage consisted of a ton of doubles and even workouts. Always hit my mileage in 6 days. I was a pretty tough runner as far as grinding out mileage (never got hurt) goes and half of my runs would be run around 7:00-7:30 pace while the other half would be 6:30-6:50/whatever the person I was running with would run. My big mistake was that I would not get enough sleep/eat correctly so of course by mid season I was iron deficient and ran a two races in the 17's. My rival who had the same track times as me at the time did almost the exact same training/ mileage. While I kept up with him at the beginning of the season by the end of the season at state he beat me by 30 seconds and won state. I still ended up running 15's that season but by November I was barely hanging on. Point of the story is if you commit to the mileage do all the little things right.

Kvothe wrote:

Yes, you should. If nothing else it will help prepare you for the 100 you will be running as a college freshman.

But what did he to to prepare him for running 100 mpw now?

No

carson28 wrote:

Before you completely reject this idea, I’ll lay out a few things:

I’m not a talented runner. At all.

PR’s are 4:40 for 1600, 9:50 for 3200, 16:32 for 5k XC.

I had a disappointing xc season this year.

I want to have a really good performance in either the 3000m or 3200m.

I did up to 75mpw this summer + cross season which included some workouts.

The only injury I had this xc season (and the past year) was a mild strain from some speed workout.

Should I go for it? Mileage would be almost all base, but I’d mix in a couple workouts and faster runs, also strides 3x a week. Occasional doubles

Probably not.

How much were you running before 75? Had you jumped up from 60 or 65? Even less? Another said you'd be better going back to 65, and I (probably) concur.

However, I'll add my story from 40 years ago (yes, I'm that old).

I was a 4:29 miler in 11th grade (which was quite an improvement over the 4:48 in 10th - 3 year high school in my years).

I'd never consistently run much more than 45-50 miles a week. Maybe an occasion 65 or even 70. In the summer before my senior year, I was determined to be a top run. The 1000 mile summer was the rage. That's 12 weeks at 84 miles a week. I started the summer great. Right on track, but I was getting a bit tired and I did not plan out my week. Every day was by feel. And I often ran too fast.

4 weeks in and I started slipping, but I figured I could get back on track. 8 weeks in and I was dead. My friend got injured and quite running. 1000 miles was impossible. But I could barely do 50 at this point.

I ended the summer somewhere in the high 800's. In retrospect that was a fantastic number, but the way I got there was stupid. I had a very up and down XC season. I was better than the year before, but some weeks I was far worse. I'd have one decent race, and one terrible race before I'd pop a good one. My last race of the season was horrible. So bad I dropped out.

That burst my bubble. I was not going to be great. I lowered my expectations. I ran a more sensible 60-65 miles a week over the winter. Doing an occasional 15-18 mile run. My goal was to run 4:24 and 9:40 (having never run a 2-mile before I was uncertain on that).

First race I popped a solo 4:24. I never ran slower, running as fast as 4:16 and 9:25 (only running the 2-mile twice). I also never ran a bad race.

Okay, maybe I was not great, but I still exceeded my expectations.

Sometimes it just takes a little time.

Nope. Tempos, hills, and fartleks.

carson28 wrote:

Before you completely reject this idea, I’ll lay out a few things:

I’m not a talented runner. At all.

PR’s are 4:40 for 1600, 9:50 for 3200, 16:32 for 5k XC.

I had a disappointing xc season this year.

I want to have a really good performance in either the 3000m or 3200m.

I did up to 75mpw this summer + cross season which included some workouts.

The only injury I had this xc season (and the past year) was a mild strain from some speed workout.

Should I go for it? Mileage would be almost all base, but I’d mix in a couple workouts and faster runs, also strides 3x a week. Occasional doubles

What you need is not more mileage. You have instead to build out from knowledge what paces are best for you

and only run mileage that complement the workouts. And don`t forget the very important recovery that most runners neglect.

mcvred wrote:

There's some missing information here: what have you run for 400/800? How long have you been running competitively? What year are you in high school? How many tempos/long runs did you incorporate into your summer training?

At 400 my max is about 59, and 800 is maybe 2:10, so I'm obviously not a fast twitch guy. I've been running since 6th grade, but middle school was a joke training wise. Average in-season XC mileage over the past few years would be 20-30 mpw freshman year, 45 mpw sophomore, 55 junior, 65-70 senior. Summer training I did one long run a week up to 16 miles, no tempos, 2-3 moderate paced days, and strides maybe 2x a week. No intervals/reps at all in the summer, everything else was easy mileage. I wasn't as consistent as I wanted to be in the summer, some weeks were 60, 65 and there were a couple weeks in which I had to cross train due to a non-running related injury.

During early season I kept the same mileage but we incorporated one day of cruise intervals and another day of a track fartlek kinda thing (both fairly high volume). As the season progressed we dropped the mileage slightly, and also did less intensity.

And to answer the question of what I did before hitting 75mpw this summer: I did about 60mpw for 4 weeks leading up to spring track last year (I swam in the winter the past 3 years). I ended up running around 40-50 mpw when I ran the 9:50 3200m, and we did more workouts in season but none were very intense.

Also for the people suggesting I do hills/tempos/intervals, I would certainly like to but my coach is pretty hard set on our team's training plan. The max amount of intensity we'll do is 2 (aerobic not speed based) workouts a week, with one long run, then strides 3x a week. Like I said earlier, it would be pretty easy to add in more mileage but changing/adding more workouts would be a challenge.

I'd drop down to 65 and stay more rested.

I'd also go to the track once a week and do a 100/100 workout. Do the straights at mile pace and the curves easy. You could also do 200s at 2 mile pace and then 100s easy. Either workout do for 15 minutes and build up to 30 minutes throughout the off season 45 minutes if you can. Work on form during the fast part and relaxing at speed.

Find a semi hilly route and do a 45 minute fartlek run. Structure it how you like but make sure the pace has a big variance to it. If the hard part is 1-2 minutes shoot for 2 mile pace. If the hard part is 2-5 minutes shoot for around your 3 mile pace. Run the easy parts easy and until you are ready to go again. Enjoy the fast and stay relaxed.

Both workouts should get progressively harder but not so hard you struggle to maintain. If it gets hard just bail and finish the workout as a slow progression run.

I'd do one medium/hard long run once a week too. structure it how you like but just go 90 minutes or build up to 90.

Every other day do easy miles with strides and skips mixed in.

This is great information, thank you.

I'd say go for it. You have two days a week where you aren't with your coach to do more strength workouts (this is where you can hit the tempos/fartleks), occasionally some harder stuff (3xMile, 600 ladder, 2k-1k-2x500, 400/800 repeats), and speed maintenance/development (Bowerman group does speed sessions once every two-three weeks according to Nick Willis, I like 8x300, 10x100, 8x150 but it's up to you, just run fully anaerobic and work on form) and you can pump up your mileage during the week. I'd give the 400 a shot in a dual/quad meet sometime early in the season if you're able, and see what you could do to claw onto a relay or two, but yeah, I'd bump yourself up 2-3 miles a week and see what it does for you. Maybe hop in a road 5k/8k just to test your fitness sometime over winter break (also another good time to get yourself some more personalized training in away from strict coaching), but make sure you continue to listen to your body. Remember, what you feel physically trumps anything any random person on a message board will tell you.

Best of luck, hope this helps and you get out of higher mileage what you desire.

Only if you want to run with anybody and beat most.

do the same mileage you did last year but increase the intensity of the speed workouts.

CoachVKdistance wrote:

no.... volume is not your problem.. it's intensity... this is painfully obvious... painfully - obvious!

3200m is not an endurance race...it's less than ten minutes long... the problem is, you're slooooow! you need to run FASTER.

signed,

a concerned NCAA DI coach

Although this guy means well, I'm not sure this is the best approach for you. I am pretty slow-twice myself (and of course was at your age, too). I knew this early and trained and raced accordingly. I didn't enter races like 1500/mile. I mainly did 10k and knew that a little longer would be even better but this was before half marathons were very popular. You might do well to do something similar. I don't know what I could have done something like 3k in but can guarantee it wouldn't have been impressive. This is just an unavoidable deal for those with physiology better suited to longer events. Well, there are exceptions since KB and Haile both ran very competitive at a wide range but you or I may be better off sticking to whatever we're best at, be that halfs, marathons, whatever.

In short, do it. Do it now. Add strides and short hill sprints to mostly long runs, some of which can be marathon pace or progressions that touch HM pace. Oh, and lose the coach. He will only be an impediment. There is so much good advice from Lydiard followers (Daniels, Pfizt) and Canova available that you'll be able to figure out what to do. It seems like you already know!

Go for it

CoachVKdistance wrote:

no.... volume is not your problem.. it's intensity... this is painfully obvious... painfully - obvious!

3200m is not an endurance race...it's less than ten minutes long... the problem is, you're slooooow! you need to run FASTER.

signed,

a concerned NCAA DI coach

it is predominately an aerobic activity...

carson28 wrote:

Before you completely reject this idea, I’ll lay out a few things:

I’m not a talented runner. At all.

PR’s are 4:40 for 1600, 9:50 for 3200, 16:32 for 5k XC.

I had a disappointing xc season this year.

I want to have a really good performance in either the 3000m or 3200m.

I did up to 75mpw this summer + cross season which included some workouts.

The only injury I had this xc season (and the past year) was a mild strain from some speed workout.

Should I go for it? Mileage would be almost all base, but I’d mix in a couple workouts and faster runs, also strides 3x a week. Occasional doubles

No you shouldnt!

This is just about the worst advice you could receive, and is why these boards are a dangerous place.

You asked for help with 3200 training and this person says "well maybe you're not meant to run the 32, deal with it and run LSD like me".

NO. WRONG. If you want to run a good 32 this year, talk to your coach and set up a good plan. Stick with the team workouts, have fun with your teammates in practice, and don't worry about it if you miss long runs here and there. As a high school kid, your kick (and performance in meets) will benefit infinitely more from the frisbee/soccer games you play with teammates in practice than bumping another 20 mpw at 7 minute mile pace. Those seconds of all out sprinting in practice will help you build type 2a fibers that you just don't get from high mileage, and that you clearly desperately need.

You wanna run sub 4:45 mile pace for 2 miles? Then finish your tempos and medium paced runs at under 4:45 pace. Work on basic, easy plyometrics and calisthenics, including lunges, squats, walking on toes, skip jumps, etc. You said it yourself, your problem is that you are not FAST. Your issue is not that you are not fit or well trained. So become fast!! You can work on your speed, and speed endurance.

Take it from someone who went from a nobody as a sophomore to district champ in the 3200 as a senior on only 30-40mpw: the key to being a quality finisher in high school is to stay a kid and train like a kid (pickup games, lazy easy runs with girls, and intermittent weight lifting included). You want fresh, snappy legs at the end of your season, don't shoot your load in January. I had friends and competitors who ran 70-90 mpw their senior year in an effort to take the next step, and I dusted them over the last lap in both of our championship races.

Listen to the D1 coach, and have FUN with your running.