calculo wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:The main thing is he couda wouda run faster than Coe
eh ???
why woud i be interested in a non-auto timed run on unknown mickey mouse 6-lane track ?
i'm far more interested in Johnny's comparison to that of a 100% legit timed run on a known 8-laner by Cruz of 1'41.77
Leave my track alone!
calculo wrote:
Johnny now confirms for all-time as if anyone was so inept not to know already that fast races in a few days make elite guys tired :
Well actually, before the race I was trying to talk my coach into allowing me not to run because I had just come from running a big race in Zurich and I was kind of tired. I had just run a 1:43-low and then most of my competitors who were just as good were sitting, waiting on me to arrive, and then I would have to race the next day. So I didn’t really want to run at a disadvantage but we got paid and my pay was already given to me and sent back to the States. So my coach (Merle McGee) said in order to have a roof over my head, you need to run, hypothetically speaking. So I said okay, I’ll run.
So I didn’t take the original approach to my race that I usually do, which was front-running...
further elaboration on fatigue of runs :
Well my Olympic experiences were always frustrating, the reason being is because we would go through the Olympic Trials running four rounds of 800’s. And most of my competitors back then didn’t have to do that. They would peak for the Games; I had to peak for the Trials. We’re running in heat — I went through rounds of the 800 in heat that was over 99 degrees outside and running 800’s and dehydrating myself and fatiguing myself and then I’d have to come back and peak again for the Games. And I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. I did everything in my power to the best that I could do, but I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. And I’ve always felt mentally, I had a disadvantage because the runners that I really knew that I had to compete against were fresher than me
No! The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Both Cruz's series of races in 84 and Gray's in 85 prove the exact opposite of what you are trying to imply. Both guys in a series of elite paced races, got faster and ran their fastest at the end of a series of 3 or 4 races in a week. Running faster times does not show more fatigue.
Your adjustments using questionable equations do not consider total drafting or competition either. If your going to offer Cram's Zurich run a 1:41 high with 2 sec positive splits, you have also got to adjust for having way more than 200m of drafting in that race. He was practically paced to 700m by Cruz and drafted by him until at least 600m.
Coe's 50.85/51.48 splits in Oslo 79 worth 1:41.8 with 2 sec positive splits according to your formula and 1:41.6 when 1m wide and only drafted from 180-330m also adjusted for.
calculo wrote:
]
further elaboration on fatigue of runs :
[quote]Well my Olympic experiences were always frustrating, the reason being is because we would go through the Olympic Trials running four rounds of 800’s. And most of my competitors back then didn’t have to do that. They would peak for the Games; I had to peak for the Trials. We’re running in heat — I went through rounds of the 800 in heat that was over 99 degrees outside and running 800’s and dehydrating myself and fatiguing myself and then I’d have to come back and peak again for the Games. And I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. I did everything in my power to the best that I could do, but I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. And I’ve always felt mentally, I had a disadvantage because the runners that I really knew that I had to compete against were fresher than me[
This just shows that the way the Olmypics is organized is ridiculous and rigged against the best sporting nations. The US pummels everyone at the Olympics year in year out and yet they have to run their trials which is basically is another Olympics. Someone like Jonny Gray was having to run 2 Olympics in a short space of time compared with his competitors such as Cruz, or the Kenyans.
The IOC needs to reorganize things and just fuse the Olympics together with the US Olympic trials. From the US point of view qualfication for the US Olympic trials/Olympics should be through a state championship which is fair as many US states are like a country in themselves - look at California; it has a bigger economy than pretty much any other country. So you would have US states and countries competing with each other in the Olympics/US trials and for the medal counts the US state team competitors will be part of the US team. The other advantage of this approach is that the US is a supereconomy so it won't be bankrupt by the cost of staging all the Olympics like Canada the UK or other countries.
Absolutely not. Forget Gray and Rudisha. Let's channel vento
You read LR so you ought to know that the fastest neg split 800 of all time....actually the fastest 800 of all time...
53.1/51.3y = 1 44.3y
Jim Ryun
Terre Haute 1966
DVTT (tm) for this race was ~1 39 as you very well know.
Correcting the original splits using a factor of .94918504314 yields:
50.3/48.7 = 1 39.0
IOC reorganize please wrote:
calculo wrote:
]
further elaboration on fatigue of runs :
[quote]Well my Olympic experiences were always frustrating, the reason being is because we would go through the Olympic Trials running four rounds of 800’s. And most of my competitors back then didn’t have to do that. They would peak for the Games; I had to peak for the Trials. We’re running in heat — I went through rounds of the 800 in heat that was over 99 degrees outside and running 800’s and dehydrating myself and fatiguing myself and then I’d have to come back and peak again for the Games. And I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. I did everything in my power to the best that I could do, but I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. And I’ve always felt mentally, I had a disadvantage because the runners that I really knew that I had to compete against were fresher than me[
This just shows that the way the Olmypics is organized is ridiculous and rigged against the best sporting nations. The US pummels everyone at the Olympics year in year out and yet they have to run their trials which is basically is another Olympics. Someone like Jonny Gray was having to run 2 Olympics in a short space of time compared with his competitors such as Cruz, or the Kenyans.
The IOC needs to reorganize things and just fuse the Olympics together with the US Olympic trials. From the US point of view qualfication for the US Olympic trials/Olympics should be through a state championship which is fair as many US states are like a country in themselves - look at California; it has a bigger economy than pretty much any other country. So you would have US states and countries competing with each other in the Olympics/US trials and for the medal counts the US state team competitors will be part of the US team. The other advantage of this approach is that the US is a supereconomy so it won't be bankrupt by the cost of staging all the Olympics like Canada the UK or other countries.
All they have to do is run trials at the last minute. Literally the week before.
Anyone can hold a peak for 1-2 weeks. Likely more. Much more chance of success than the usual two huge separate peaks in June and Aug.
Other sports and other countries get this.
calculo wrote:
JRinaldi wrote:Its reported that Wilson Kipketer's 1:42.17 in Tokyo in 1996 was with a 50.8 last lap
unfortunately that meet wasn't publicised well being in far east over 2/52 after rieti when everyone thought season was over
i can't confirm the splits as no vid coverage on satellite sports channels of it, just mention of clocking in general media back then & not much as he's aleady run 1'41.83 in rieti which most assumed was his final race of '96
because he didn't match rieti clocking it was not televised in sports feeds
1'42.17 off 51.37/50.8 is staggering !
corrected to 2s +ve splits from above formula
-> correction of 0.86s
-> 1'42.17 - 0.86s =
1'41.33 !!!
& probably some wide running in that if 51.3 at bell !
this 100% solidifies that Kip in '96 was in shape to annihilate the 800wr even before '97 even though rieti was fraction outside
it also means that unless he fell, it is is virtually 100% certain he wouda won gold in atlanta if allowed to run
Nice to see that our good old friend Ventolin is still always spot on with his evaluation.
The meet was televised on Eurosport (I have it on tape). Wilson Kipketer has not run a single extra centimeter during the full race. In the first lap he at least was 2 meters behind the pacemaker who stopped after 400m.
You can call it an solo effort from gun to tape - absolutely wonderful performance. What a fantastic runner Kipketer was at his best. And his running form probably was the most beautiful ever seen in the 800m.
UsedToDriveMeCrazy wrote:
It used to drive me crazy to watch Gray run. Man, he was talented but had terrible race tactics. Seems like he'd run a couple of great races each year and have the world leading time, but fall apart at the championships each year. He did mention this in his interview. I think he is right that he was tired come championship time, but more likely it was because of a training plan that involved almost all speed work and no endurance. Peaking on an all speed work program is a crap shoot. Couple that with a "go out as hard as you can and hope you hold on" tactic and there will occasionally be good ones, but results are unpredictable. Exactly the Johnny Gray story. Heck of a runner when he was on, though.
sounds like duane solomon....
"if I can remember, my first lap was 51.3-something "
I think he mis-remembered.
I don't for a minute think he negative split an 800m race in his life.
Certainly not his PR.
Not Johnny "Twighlight Zone" Gray.
Better idea wrote:
All they have to do is run trials at the last minute. Literally the week before.
Anyone can hold a peak for 1-2 weeks. Likely more. Much more chance of success than the usual two huge separate peaks in June and Aug.
Other sports and other countries get this.
This would leave no time for athletes who made the team but didn't have the Olympic standard. This would also leave no time for athletes to recover from a meet with multiple rounds. Then their next meet would also be a meet with multiple rounds. There would also be no time for travel and to adjust to time zone differences. I'm not aware of any other sports that hold their Trials the week before an international championship.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Correction = ( 2nd lap - 1st lap - 2 ) * (1/3)
-> ( 51.3 - 51.3 - 2 ) * (1/3) = 0.67s correction
-> 1'42.60 - 0.67 =
1'41.93
i reckon his AR would have been sub-1'42 off 2s +ve splits
Why are you still pushing this fallacy?
eh ?
if you got analysis, post it
So the guy runs perfect pacing throughut the race
is this a joke ?
do you have any clue about the sport ???
look up the lap splits for fastest 10 runs of all time
hell, look it up for top 20 clockings
what is the average split difference ???
if you don't think it is ~ + 2.0s you again have no business posting here
and your silly model says that it is worth 1:41.93
utterly beyond your depth
try again
with it post it your own model
if you think even-splits is ideal then offer correction to 2s +ve splits ???
you might learn logic
Anyhow you originally said that your silly, made up equation was designed for situations of outlier laps
is this a joke ???
where do any of my formulas say for outliers ???
do you have any clue about math ?
Now you are using it for perfect splits
is this a joke ?
do you have any clue about the sport ???
look up the lap splits for fastest 10 runs of all time
hell, look it up for top 20 clockings
what is the average split difference ???
if you don't think it is ~ + 2.0s you again have no business posting here
Your second equation is even more ridiculous than the first, manufactured to suit
again clueless
here are are the vids of the 2nd & 3rd fastest ever clockings, where you have to analyse vids for clock error to estimate 200m split
find the 200m split in each from freeze-frame, then input in formula then estimate what correction is required :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_of87fPA6fgi'll even do the estimate as you clearly aren't capable :
it is is 0.2s clock error
->
200 split on clock for him estimated from vid is 24.2 with 0.2s error -> 24.4 in 1'41.01
https://youtu.be/bYfNElHP0OY?t=40impress board you can do some math & put those figures into formula ???!!!
of course, it does not mean not berlin/rieti meant he ran ideal races those days
far from it, no serious drafting in either !!!
also, he coud clearly have risked 3 or 4 tenths quicker at 200 if expected better drafting 200 - 400 to annihilate WR
then we come to best 2 runs in synthetic track history, but hugely outsida of the shape Ryun was in '67 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOS3RQU92Z423.0 !!! in 1'41.24!!
impress board ?
what was his expected clocking ?
then we come to current WR :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs23.5!! in a 1'40.91 !!
impress board ?
what was his expected clocking ?
then consider fast rounds as Johnny has said are wrecking !!!, then offer 0.35s for NO drafting
impress me with some math...
Look at Venti's post to me, he actually edit pasted the same comment twice, ha.
calculo wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:The main thing is he couda wouda run faster than Coe
eh ???
why woud i be interested in a non-auto timed run on unknown mickey mouse 6-lane track ?
No idea why you are so obsessed but you have made thousands of posts to denigrate Coe's race. All of them filled with illogic.
Tusoteuthis wrote:
Absolutely not. Forget Gray and Rudisha. [quote]Let's channel vento
who ?
You read LR so you ought to know that the fastest neg split 800 of all time....actually the fastest 800 of all time...
53.1/51.3y = 1 44.3y
Jim Ryun
Terre Haute 1966
DVTT (tm) for this race was ~1 39 as you very well know.
Correcting the original splits using a factor of .94918504314 yields:
50.3/48.7 = 1 39.0
yup
there are guys & then Ptolemy :
https://youtu.be/onvUTQCJbgQ?t=70'67 shape :
~ 44.25 / 1'40.00
->
2'09.63
3'27.05
3'44.50
no 1500 or mile current worthwhile but 3'27-flat ain't bad, & 1'40-flat likely shape if fully healthy & no prelim earlier & no horrendous wind on proper '70s track in this brief clip of WR on that slow asphalt after prelim coupla hours before is no joke
https://video.lib.ku.edu/items/show/1525Ryun was not likely anything better than 3'27/3'44 in '66 but some compensation maya come from 1'40-flat & 2'09-high then
the '67 shape is utterly incredible !!!
we have no full vid of Dusseldorf 3'38.2 with 36.5 on chewed up dirt just brief clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUsEuv3Debsmy estimate of his '70s track shape that day is
~ 44.00 / 1'38.97
->
2'08.13
3'24.22
3'41.35
the analytical lesson to teach you is that his 1500 was weak in '66 albeit in 1'40-flat shape - he was likely only in 3'27-flat
Dusseldorf was another universe
that was 44-flat/1'38-high/3'24-low shape...
calculo wrote:
23.0 !!! in 1'41.24!!
impress board ?
what was his expected clocking ?
then we come to current WR :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs23.5!! in a 1'40.91 !!
impress board ?
what was his expected clocking ?
then consider fast rounds as Johnny has said are wrecking !!!, then offer 0.35s for NO drafting
impress me with some math...
First of all, if these great runners like Rudisha were hampered by "lots of rounds" which I have never denied. Then how come Rudisha has never run faster than the London final, as you have admitted London is hardly the best track or conditions for a fast time, yet Rudisha running running behind a pacer in a one-off race has not even come close. Look at Juantorena, he only ran 0.06s faster than 1976, where he was a rookie. Doubell never ran faster than then the 1968 final, Erang barely ran faster than the 1988 final. The same goes for Rodal in lane 2 for the entire race, and the same goes for many World champions. It is called the Olympic Final and it is the most important race.
Most of the elite runners, if they made such major tactical errors as you suggest. Would sit down with their coaches, look at the videos and make changes so that they could indeed run 1:40.24 or what ever time that you suggest. The economics dictate that if a runner could run 1:40 or better they would earn a fortune. Your analysis indicates that all of these great runners are somehow deliberately giving up money by performing below potential.
I'm surprised that you haven't adjusted Ereng's world indoor record, yet.
Welsh Wizard wrote:
calculo wrote:
Johnny now confirms for all-time as if anyone was so inept not to know already that fast races in a few days make elite guys tired :
further elaboration on fatigue of runs :
No! The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
eh ?
Both Cruz's series of races in 84 and Gray's in 85 prove the exact opposite of what you are trying to imply.
is this a joke ???
how inept are you ???
what part of Johnny wanted to go home before Koblenz you not comprehend ???
Both guys in a series of elite paced races
is this a joke ???
the youtube vids showed Cruz & Johnny got got crap pacing/drafting
got faster and ran their fastest at the end of a series of 3 or 4 races in a week
is this a joke ???
Johnny says he wanted to go quit by koblenz !!!
he said he was finished !!!
this was 100% expected
who are you to to tell him he was in peak shape in koblenz ?
he likely run truckload wide in koblenz, likely route-1 of ~ 1'42-flat/low before even consideration of split formulas
who are you to tell Johnny that he was not tired when he ran 1'42.60 ???
Running faster times does not show more fatigue
utter nonsense
fast times means hurt
Johnny said it
how about Wilson running 1'43-low in '97 gold but in zurich was in
~ 1'40-flat !!!
how no 1'40-flat in athens ???
Your adjustments using questionable equations do not consider total drafting or competition either
is this a joke ?
you offer nothing under your 100+ handles
if you had, you woud impress board
impress me/board
if a speed guy went out in 24.00 & superbly held onto 1'44.00, what do you think he couda run for 800 ?
impress board ?
If your going to offer Cram's Zurich run a 1:41 high with 2 sec positive splits, you have also got to adjust for having way more than 200m of drafting in that race
is this a joke ?
he was running wide so much of race it was laughable !
He was practically paced to 700m by Cruz
is this a joke ?
no pacing
following slow-ass guy ruins clockings
cram was following slow-ass guy beyond 400
and drafted by him until at least 600m.
rubbish slow to 600
Cruz was utterly crushed !!!
but few days he later he crushed coe in koln !!!
Coe's 50.85/51.48 splits in Oslo 79 worth 1:41.8 with 2 sec positive splits according to your formula and 1:41.6 when 1m wide and only drafted from 180-330m also adjusted for
utter nonsense mickey-mouse track !!!
most laughable track in colored vid era !!!
absurd track with finishing line hugely shoved onto bend !!!
gold-standard is 8-laner of 116/84
coe's run exact run wouda been
~ 1'42-low
Tusoteuthis wrote:
Absolutely not. Forget Gray and Rudisha. Let's channel vento
You read LR so you ought to know that the fastest neg split 800 of all time....actually the fastest 800 of all time...
53.1/51.3y = 1 44.3y
Jim Ryun
Terre Haute 1966
DVTT (tm) for this race was ~1 39 as you very well know.
Correcting the original splits using a factor of .94918504314 yields:
50.3/48.7 = 1 39.0
Is this a choke?
Where did you get this factor of 0.94918504314 ? Should be 0.94918504315 .
Moron.
calculo wrote:
the exact series of races Johnny ran were :
8/21/85 - zurich - 1'43.43
8/23/85 - berlin - 1'43.84
8/25/85 - cologne - 1'43.33
8/28/85 - koblenz - 1'42.60 !!
add
Indianapolis 1:44.01
Rieti 1:44.55
14 years later Gray still ran 1:45.38 !!!
LISTEN TO ME!!!!!
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calculo wrote:
Johnny's statement of tiredness from fast runs in short period of time makes Cruz's 1'41.77 run in koln year before almost beyond belief !!!
8/20/84 - nissa - 2'14.09
8/22/84 - zurich - 1'42.34
8/24/84 - brussels - 1'42.41
8/26/84 - koln - 1'41.77 !!!
using "Gray's Law", Cruz coud no way have been anything but hugely, hugely tired when he lined up for koln-'84 & even more tired than Johnny was in '85 for koblenz as Cruz's runs were much faster & virtually all PBs before koln & Johnny's weren't
Cruz if fully rested for koln-'84 with no hammering in his legs from nissa/zurich/brussels in his legs musta been looking at
1'41-flat
My goodness. I was too young to be a fan back ten but do most people assume Cruz was clean? That's amazing if he was clean.
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
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