Is Johnny Gray's American Record run the fastest negative-split 800m of all time?

Fixed PDF link for Rudisha's run:

http://www.dbresults.net/sitof/risultati/at/2010/Nairobi2807201001/stampe/cls-asm-800%20m-finale-01.pdf

I don't know the answer, but how would you differentiate an even-pace 800 from a negative split? Would you require an even-pace race to have each half equal to two decimal places?

What I found fascinating is two of the best races of his career were races where he went out slow by his own standards. Would have run better had he done that more often?

His PR came in a 51.3 first lap. His medal came in like a 50 flat first lap.

He was terrified of being nudged during a race, had no choice but to go out suicidal every time.

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SMTR wrote:
terrified of being nudged

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Its reported that Wilson Kipketer's 1:42.17 in Tokyo in 1996 was with a 50.8 last lap. Cram was also 51 point 51 point in his 1:42.88

Calculo will be here soon to confirm all the above.

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rojo wrote:

What I found fascinating is two of the best races of his career were races where he went out slow by his own standards. Would have run better had he done that more often?

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JRinaldi wrote:Its reported that Wilson Kipketer's 1:42.17 in Tokyo in 1996 was with a 50.8 last lap

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calculo wrote:

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rojo wrote:

What I found fascinating is two of the best races of his career were races where he went out slow by his own standards. Would have run better had he done that more often?

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Unlikely

the problem was not going out fast, but going out ridiculously fast in lot of races, often not his fault but because of inept pacer

his '85 record off suggested 51.3/51.3 i estimate should be corrected to 2s +ve splits using

Correction = ( 2nd lap - 1st lap - 2 ) * (1/3)


-> ( 51.3 - 51.3 - 2 ) * (1/3) = 0.67s correction

-> 1'42.60 - 0.67 =

1'41.93


i reckon his AR would have been sub-1'42 off 2s +ve splits

( you also have to factor in that although the run isn't on youtube, but probably exists as koblenz was quite serious meet in those days, where ovett had run a 1500wr in '80, that with split of 51.3 at bell, he invariably had to do some wide running on 1 or more bends as no way was he leading that race at bell with 51.3 ( Cruz actually won that day in 1'42.49 ) & probably had to run around some guys to get to 2nd

all this solidifies a time then of likely 1'41-mid/high )

a comparable run was the 1'42.65 in zurich in '88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm_O53BP0dg

utterly ridiculous pacing !!!

there is 0.1s clock error & Gray thru 200 in 24.1 actual

( the pacer thru in nonsense 23.1 !!!

this is actually 0.1s slower than Wilson would split thru 200 in his 1'41.24 years later !!! )

the formula i use to correct for abnormal 200 splits for ideal clocking, where T is actual finish time & S the recorded 200 split is :

Correction = ( 3T - 12S - 9 ) * ( 1/16 )


-> ( 3*102.65 - 12*24.1 - 9 ) * ( 1/16 ) = 0.61s correction

-> 1'42.65 - 0.61 =

1'42.04


now, he got no effective drafting in this run as pacer too far ahead, so ideal run with ideal pacing & drafting to bell which is 200m at 0.70/lap -> 0.35s owed

-> 1'42.04 - 0.35 =

1'41.69


it's likely in this zurich run, if he'd had the perfect race, he had shot of being nearly 1s faster & breaking the WR...

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ukathleticscoach wrote: The main thing is he couda wouda run faster than Coe.

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It used to drive me crazy to watch Gray run. Man, he was talented but had terrible race tactics. Seems like he'd run a couple of great races each year and have the world leading time, but fall apart at the championships each year. He did mention this in his interview. I think he is right that he was tired come championship time, but more likely it was because of a training plan that involved almost all speed work and no endurance. Peaking on an all speed work program is a crap shoot. Couple that with a "go out as hard as you can and hope you hold on" tactic and there will occasionally be good ones, but results are unpredictable. Exactly the Johnny Gray story. Heck of a runner when he was on, though.

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JRinaldi wrote:Cram was also 51 point 51 point in his 1:42.88

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As I said, 51 point, 51 point!

> cram's splits were

~ 51.01 / 51.87 to 51.11 / 51.77

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ukathleticscoach wrote:The main thing is he couda wouda run faster than Coe

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Johnny now confirms for all-time as if anyone was so inept not to know already that fast races in a few days make elite guys tired :

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Well actually, before the race I was trying to talk my coach into allowing me not to run because I had just come from running a big race in Zurich and I was kind of tired. I had just run a 1:43-low and then most of my competitors who were just as good were sitting, waiting on me to arrive, and then I would have to race the next day. So I didn’t really want to run at a disadvantage but we got paid and my pay was already given to me and sent back to the States. So my coach (Merle McGee) said in order to have a roof over my head, you need to run, hypothetically speaking. So I said okay, I’ll run.

So I didn’t take the original approach to my race that I usually do, which was front-running...

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Well my Olympic experiences were always frustrating, the reason being is because we would go through the Olympic Trials running four rounds of 800’s. And most of my competitors back then didn’t have to do that. They would peak for the Games; I had to peak for the Trials. We’re running in heat — I went through rounds of the 800 in heat that was over 99 degrees outside and running 800’s and dehydrating myself and fatiguing myself and then I’d have to come back and peak again for the Games. And I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. I did everything in my power to the best that I could do, but I was always tired by the time I got to the Games. And I’ve always felt mentally, I had a disadvantage because the runners that I really knew that I had to compete against were fresher than me

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the exact series of races Johnny ran were :

8/21/85 - zurich - 1'43.43

8/23/85 - berlin - 1'43.84

8/25/85 - cologne - 1'43.33

8/28/85 - koblenz - 1'42.60 !!

it's no crime that Gray's memories are playing tricks after 30+y, but it was not just zurich which tired him out but other 2 runs in between before his career PB

Johnny's statement of tiredness from fast runs in short period of time makes Cruz's 1'41.77 run in koln year before almost beyond belief !!!

in the few days before, he ran these following, with little drafting & also nonsense opening 23.7 pacer in zurich compounded by wide running on 3rd bend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMo4s0SaIYk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NNKBFEgYoM

8/20/84 - nissa - 2'14.09

8/22/84 - zurich - 1'42.34

8/24/84 - brussels - 1'42.41

8/26/84 - koln - 1'41.77 !!!

using "Gray's Law", Cruz coud no way have been anything but hugely, hugely tired when he lined up for koln-'84 & even more tired than Johnny was in '85 for koblenz as Cruz's runs were much faster & virtually all PBs before koln & Johnny's weren't

Cruz if fully rested for koln-'84 with no hammering in his legs from nissa/zurich/brussels in his legs musta been looking at

1'41-flat