Vaporfly 4%, first impression...

I'd like to think not. I sincerely hope it's zero percent because of the shoes. But hey. Who knows.

They feel great to run in nevertheless.

Work Commute Track Club wrote:

I ran Berlin marathon in them. Improved from a 2:25 to a sub 2:20 guy. I love the shoe.

Works out to be about 4% improvement. Go figure...

I mean, Bekele won Berlin 16 in Streaks, then in 2017, in Vapoflys, he couldn't even finish the race. Kipchoge won London 16 in Streaks in 2:03:05, then plodded to a pedestrian 2:03:32 on the faster Berlin 17 course in Vaporflys. It's gotta be the shoes.

flapper wrote:

Work Commute Track Club wrote:

I ran Berlin marathon in them. Improved from a 2:25 to a sub 2:20 guy. I love the shoe.

Works out to be about 4% improvement. Go figure...

I mean, Bekele won Berlin 16 in Streaks, then in 2017, in Vapoflys, he couldn't even finish the race. Kipchoge won London 16 in Streaks in 2:03:05, then plodded to a pedestrian 2:03:32 on the faster Berlin 17 course in Vaporflys. It's gotta be the shoes.

Conditions in London were much better than in Berlin the course isn't everything

flapper wrote:

Kipchoge won London 16 in Streaks in 2:03:05, then plodded to a pedestrian 2:03:32 on the faster Berlin 17 course in Vaporflys. It's gotta be the shoes.

The #9 all time marathon performance and second best career time for Kipchoge is "pedestrian"? Surely you must be joking.

Les wrote:

flapper wrote:

Kipchoge won London 16 in Streaks in 2:03:05, then plodded to a pedestrian 2:03:32 on the faster Berlin 17 course in Vaporflys. It's gotta be the shoes.

The #9 all time marathon performance and second best career time for Kipchoge is "pedestrian"? Surely you must be joking.

Yes, of course I'm joking.

I'm not saying that the VFs don't or can't have an effect, but it makes as much sense to say, "I ran X mins faster in the VFs so it must be the shoes" as it does to point out that the elites haven't run any faster in them (yet)...and actually have run slower or DNF'd. And when they do run faster in them, will it be the shoes? Who can say (NIke will, obvs). For mortals, or even guys running 2:20, it may be the shoes, it may be placebo effect/added confidence (which is real), it may be natural progression and results of training, it may be ideal weather, etc. The shoes are also rather lightweight, which is not insignificant. They may very well improve running efficiency by whatever % Nike claims...it is just going to be difficult or impossible to really quantify what effect, if any, that has on times, say, over the course of a marathon. For data, we could compare the times of the elites before VFs and with VFs, but there so many variables that such comparisons will be difficult or pointless. Anecdotal accounts of, "my feet feel less fatigued" or "I was running faster with the same effort over the same route" unfortunately have little real value.

RW tested in a lab, found less leg muscle activity and lower HR when running the same pace. Will that translate directly to faster times on different courses on different days? No. But, will it mean less effort to cover the same course than needed that day in a different pair of shoes? Yes. Even so, shit could (and often does) no matter how well prepared and equipped you are.

https://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/a-closer-look-at-nikes-newest-super-shoe/slide/6

pork and mindy wrote:

RW tested in a lab, found less leg muscle activity and lower HR when running the same pace. Will that translate directly to faster times on different courses on different days? No. But, will it mean less effort to cover the same course than needed that day in a different pair of shoes? Yes. Even so, shit could (and often does) no matter how well prepared and equipped you are.

https://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/a-closer-look-at-nikes-newest-super-shoe/slide/6

Except they didn't say what shoe they tested it against and the weight difference between the shoe they tested against. That would make a huge difference in the test.

6'3''

210

34/M

Size 14

I want a pair for the Chicago 'Thon....

pork and mindy wrote:

RW tested in a lab, found less leg muscle activity and lower HR when running the same pace. Will that translate directly to faster times on different courses on different days? No. But, will it mean less effort to cover the same course than needed that day in a different pair of shoes? Yes. Even so, shit could (and often does) no matter how well prepared and equipped you are.

https://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/a-closer-look-at-nikes-newest-super-shoe/slide/6

Yeah, it's hard to know what 4% less "muscle activity" means in real world terms. I'm not sure this equates in any way to energy expended or even if it did equate to energy expended what that would mean for potential speed/time gain, and not just for a couple mins on a treadmill but for an entire marathon. Also, the subject (only 1?) likely was not blinded to the shoes they were wearing and what was being tested. This could have an effect on heart rate, among other factors. Also, what pace was the test run at? Do their data vary by pace? Or did they cherry-pick a pace where the effect was most prominent? And they really should reproduce any worthwhile test(s) with as many different runners (build, weight, height, biomechanics, sex, etc) as possible.

Anyway, if Nike is going to make the claim that these shoes will make you (or Eliud) faster, then they have to provide some proof. This treadmill test isn't that. And there isn't any running proof yet, either.

FWIW, I'm guessing that for some runners this shoe will have real benefits...this only makes sense as it represents a further technological advancement in design and materials. But we need more data points. For me, I would look to consistent and widespread improvements in times over the same course in the new shoes compared with the old, with as many variables as can be adjusted for. These lab tests seem iffy, not to mention there simply aren't enough details about how they were conducted.

Lotsa words. You clearly have not run in the shoes yet. Theyre fast and I don’t need proof or “more data points.” No other shoe is tested to provide such proof. But people who have run in the shoes can tell you its totally different and faster than any flat you’ll find.

justrunalready wrote:

Lotsa words. You clearly have not run in the shoes yet. Theyre fast and I don’t need proof or “more data points.” No other shoe is tested to provide such proof. But people who have run in the shoes can tell you its totally different and faster than any flat you’ll find.

Yeah, a lotta words, and you seem to understand so few of them.

I have run in them. I own a pair.

"Proof" ... "tested" ... please. There seem to be only 2 tests online. Nike funded the first (and there's only an abstract available); the second, by RW, is laughably unscientific.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I used the vaporfly for the first time a couple of weeks back for a 10k. It was my first time wearing it for anything longer than strides. The plan for the race was just to cruise for the win and test the shoes out. I did a 3 mile warm up but did not get to do any strides because I cut it too short to the start time of the race. i didn't feel very fast in them the first 4 miles. it could be because I didn't do any strides before the race. I did feel like they were responsive and definitely felt a nice bounce to them. I was able to pick it up by 25 secs on that 5th mile because someone came up on me unexpectedly, which was a real surprise to me because that mile was pretty close to my 5k race pace on the track. I feel like the shoe is a great marathon shoe. I will have to try it in a half to see how it feels for that. I will definitely be sticking to my streaks LT for anything shorter then a 10k though. That 5th and 6th mile of my 10k has me thinking that I might get away with it in a 10k going all out though. That mile close to 5k pace felt real effortless after going half marathon pace for the first 4 miles. They will be my go to shoe for my fall marathon for sure.

They tested against latest Streak.