Marathon training without LONG runs?

You can follow Hansons plan and be fine. You can get by with a long run of 2 hours if you can do 16 miles in that time. You compensate for the lack of long runs with other quality workouts. I used the advanced plan and it worked just fine.

PatrickSebast wrote:

No known medical conditions. It just takes me all day to feel 'right' again when I go much longer than 2 hours in extreme cold. This essentially turns my long run into a 'hard' day an limits my other training. Historically bundling up extra hasn't really helped. It changes the feeling from being 'cold' all day to just feeling a bit 'ill'.

Again this is for sub-zero temps not counting windchill (which is usually substantial on the cold days), so this is just the extremes but I wanted to have a plan in place to account for a cold December.

Then you're not eating right properly or have various issues in addition to your stubborn ignorance and arrogance.

What are you 80 years old? If so OK, I can understand but otherwise spaure us the inane blather and excuses.

16 is probably pushing it for me in 2 hours. 7:30 is closer to race pace. However an extra mile or two doesn't seem like an unreasonable squeeze...

Harden up. People train for marathons in cold weather all the time. If there's a blizzard one weekend, postpone it or use a treadmill.

And yes, you can use a treadmill for more than 1 hour if you have any discipline whatsoever.

Doesn't Hanson's often recommend 16 for the long run?

I've seen that it is possible to not run over 18 miles while training and you can still PR and run a great race just make the 18miles a tempo run.

Speaker of Hard Truths wrote:

Harden up. People train for marathons in cold weather all the time. If there's a blizzard one weekend, postpone it or use a treadmill.

And yes, you can use a treadmill for more than 1 hour if you have any discipline whatsoever.

agree completely but it's obvious this guy is a troll; NO details on where he lives or diet, other conditions that make his recovery so arduous.

Sebast, you obviously don't want to listen so why do you ask?

And if you're serious but just shy, HTFU as everyone says. It's not complex.

3 Options:

1. Grow a pair. My favourite one.

2. Suck on race day.

3. The last 8 weeks do this:

2 hrs @ 80 % MP.

2 hrs @ 85 % MP.

2 hrs easy.

2 hours @ 90 % MP.

2 hours: 60': 85 % MP, last 60' @ MP.

2 hours at 80 - 85 % MP.

90' easy.

Race.

When you run enough easy miles, intervals and 9 - 12 mile tempos in addition, you will be very well prepared.

and i live in an area that is pretty cold as well. november and sub zero? yes, always. though i am not a marathoner, i am used to get out once every week to get in my long run. do it. get used to cold days. nothing special.

It's been done pretty successfully many, many, times. My fastest marathon came with nothing more than 15-16 mile runs in the year or so preceding it. There was a Brit called Chris Stewart who was third at New York in successive years in the late 70s each time in 2:13. He told me that in one of those years his longest run was 8 miles. There's this guy:

https://www.runnersworld.com/masters/day-after-day-with-yoshihisa-hosaka

.

Here's a two time Olympic marathon medallist:

Karel Lismont (Olympic brons (1972) and silver (1976) Marathon)

Lismont worked full time (8 hours a day) at the Ministry of Finance (Tax registration). Despite the fact that he was a marathon runner, he hardly did any real long runs, though he did run a lot. He’s training regime was very hard and featured lots of interval training. Most of his easy runs were done at 4’/km (roughly 6’30”/mile)

The following training week is very accurate and he did these kind of training weeks year round – I know Lismont personally and he assured me this was how he trained.

Monday:

Morning: 6 miles

Noon: 6 miles + 10 x 100m

Evening: Interval training (see below for examples) (Total incl. warmup en cooldown: 5 miles)

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday: Same as Monday

Saturday:

AM: 9-10 miles

PM: 9-10 miles

Sunday:

easy day; not specified in the book

Week Total: +- 110 miles

Interval training examples:

- 10 – 12 x 200m

- 10 x 300m

- 6-8 x 600m

- 6 x 800m

Lismont preferred short but fast intervals. He never ran intervals longer than 800m.

He didn’t like running longer than 1 hour because he found it to be boring and by running no more than 6 miles at a time Monday to Friday, he felt he was recovering better while being able to combine the running more easily with working full time.

Side note – Lismont was in peak shape and ready to win at the Montreal olympics in 1976. But a few weeks before the race he went through a rough period personally (divorce) and developed problems with his stomach. He was already at racing weight, but lost about 10 pounds due to this condition and his blood values were terrible, despite this he still ended up with the bronze medal just 1’20” after gold medal Cierpinski and 27” after Frank Shorter.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=8160693&thread=8160693#8160693#ixzz4rGyEbPDH

Buy your shoes from LetsRun and save 20% everday

http://www.letsrun.com/save

I used to know a guy called Jack Mahurin who was a low 2:20s marathoner in the 70s and also had a Ph.D in exercise physiology. Jack would never do any runs longer than an hour outside of races because he said in his research he'd found there is an enzyme released into your muscles that damages them His version of a long run was three 10 milers on Sundays all in fifty seven to sixty minutes.

I think overall volume is much more important. Stewart was doing 120-130 miles a week when he did that 2:13. Mahurin was a 100 or more a week guy. Lismont was doing about 110. Hosaka is well over 100. I was doing 80-90 but was pretty much beyond the time when I was really serious about marathons.

I'm not saying long runs don't matter and I think that to some extent, but only some, you can compensate for lower mileage with really long runs. But other things being equal, if I have to bet on who'll win in a marathon between a 70 a week guy doing long runs and a 100 a week guy not doing them my money is on the second guy.

I only got into serious long-distance racing when I could no longer run and had to racewalk instead. With that as a huge caveat:

I personally found that going out two, or even three times a day, usually for an hour or a bit less, was considerably more helpful than single long efforts. I found the latter too draining (need for recovery messed up the following days' training too much), and too slow: too far from the race pace I was projecting.

For the marathon I walked this January, I probably didn't have any single session that was longer than 90 minutes (and the longest actually might have been closer to 75-80). But I was totaling 12-14 hours per week in the last month or so before the race. Total mileage was a lot more important than individual long efforts.

As usual, different things work for different people, but that seemed to work for me. Take that for what it's worth.

PatrickSebast wrote:

I am planning to run a Marathon in the south in January. Problem is I live in an area that can get pretty cold and cannot reliably schedule runs past 2 hours long after November. 2 hours and under is fine even in sub zero temps if I bundle up but past that recovery gets iffy. So presuming I won't be running anything past 2 hours (14 - 15 miles) what would you recommend as a December training schedule? Multiple longer runs? Just increase quality?

For context I have run 2 marathons before and if I ran one next weekend I would almost certainly PR as my easy run pace is now faster than my former Marathon pace so finishing isn't a major concern.

It's all about the apparel.

Get GTX(Gore-tex) shoes online while it's warm for 60-70 bucks.

Layer up on the tech materials.

Wear wind blocker under briefs.

Have a water proof or at least very water resistant shell with a reliable hood that has a bill.

Keep something in your pocket to cover your face if you start to worry about frost bite.

If necessary, run 20 minutes out and back from your house for safety until you've run your total minutes.

I'm nearly 60 and run 20+ miles in sub zero wind chills as long as I stick to the above.

It depends on the level of running. If you want 3 hours or so for a marathon then 1 hour/ day running is plenty. You would simply train at 6-7'/mi

If you want < 2:35 then some runs over 75' are useful but not mandatory. You just spend more time running w/ somewhat hard effort ex 12mi 6'/mi

If you want to run

Tend to agree more with those who say there is a way - focusing more on overall weekly mileage - even if it means you might not hit your theoretical personal potential. That's probably ok given your situation and priorities.

I live somewhere where it gets very hot and humid in summer (40C plus) and I slow down my long runs and take on more fluids to compensate. It's manageable and not so extreme as others - I honestly think that if I lived somewhere where treadmills or genuinely inhospitable conditions were the only option, I might run a lot less than I do.

I think it depends on your expectation. I ran 3:10 from not running anything longer than 8 miles for about 4 months prior to the marathon except for half marathon 2 months before the marathon. But it showed as I ran the hm in 1:25.

I did decent amount of mileage where I averaged about 60 miles running doubles almost everyday for about 10 months.

IronRan wrote:

I've seen that it is possible to not run over 18 miles while training and you can still PR and run a great race just make the 18miles a tempo run.

I ran a good marathon (not PR but close) with a single longest run of 17 miles. Everything else was 16 or shorter. I was not following Hanson's plan but did utilize their strategy of shorter but harder long runs. Worked fine for me.

The only reason I ran 17 is because I miscalculated my turn around point on a 16 miler.

Seedbiscuit wrote:

Speaker of Hard Truths wrote:

Harden up. People train for marathons in cold weather all the time. If there's a blizzard one weekend, postpone it or use a treadmill.

And yes, you can use a treadmill for more than 1 hour if you have any discipline whatsoever.

agree completely but it's obvious this guy is a troll; NO details on where he lives or diet, other conditions that make his recovery so arduous.

Sebast, you obviously don't want to listen so why do you ask?

And if you're serious but just shy, HTFU as everyone says. It's not complex.

Man, I'm a hobby-jogger not an elite runner. I run 8-8:30 per mile on my easy runs. It should be enough to simply say that I don't want to train more than 2 hours in the freezing cold and ask for alternatives rather than be required to even have reason behind it.

Not to mention I am listening to the suggestions and ideas of the multiple people who have solutions besides "Just do it anyway!"

I am completely open to listening to a discussion about WHY the 3 hour long run is essential, but considering I will be doing it through November and there have been multiple valid examples given of how to train without it I am not sure anyone is going to be able to provide anything well sourced.

If I am going to get some magic benefit from training for 3 hours I may reconsider, but it didn't seem like I should miss out on much if I am willing to add volume to other days.

I think, back in the day, the idea of looking for jobs that were compatible with running twice a day was much more easier than now. And we were into running twice a day. I think the whole sub group of sub elites has vanished because of the high stress of many jobs now and the inability or unwillingness to run twice a day to reach a person's potential. But you bring up a good point in that what Lismont did in runs no more than 6 miles and slightly longer on the weekends. So for non-elites a more revised version might still get someone under 3 if they were wiling to try it. I too seem to not like longer runs these days but I'm willing to do 2 a days as needed.

I always considered volume to me more important that really long runs. I also seemed to max out at about 15 miles in my long runs but was able to get several sub 2:40's on volume. When I hit my PR I did two 15 mile runs in a week for a about 2 months.