How to get fast after 40

I'm in a similar place. Started running in mid thirties (39 now), quit smoking (1 pack a day for 10 years), lost 40Kg. Got to roughly 19/40/90 two years ago and have effectively plateaued since. I've had up and downs, over-trained my brains out in the fall/winter 2015 when I stopped improving. I've been able to get back into shape, but never breaking significantly beyond the above times. To try to break through, I've upped weekly mileage from 45 to 60 this summer. Jury's still out on results.

To chime on on your PRs, that 400 does seem slow compared to your K. For comparison I'm around 65 and somewhere between 3:15 and 3:20. It's also a little weird you've only broken 40 once, yet when you did you crushed it by 50s. I would think that given your 1/2 and 5K, you have plenty of endurance and speed to run sub40 comfortably.

I have nothing particularly useful to contribute, but it was heartening to read someone going through comparable problems, so figured I'd say hi. I'll keep an eye on the thread, do let us know if you crack it.

One thing you guys should keep in mind is that it isn't unusual for runnners to plateau and then have a break through. Running progress is not linear. It happens in fits and starts. Cumulative mileage and smart, well designed workouts make a difference over time. I started running as a college freshman at 18, had a pretty nice jump (got down to 15:1x) and then made only incremental gains through my junior year (14:5x). My senior year I struggled some, then one week it all came together and I ended up (barely) breaking 14:20.

Sure, your. Or in your early 20s, but you have only been running for a couple of years. The cumulative miles may yet take their toll (in a good way).

Smoove wrote:

One thing you guys should keep in mind is that it isn't unusual for runnners to plateau and then have a break through. Running progress is not linear. It happens in fits and starts. Cumulative mileage and smart, well designed workouts make a difference over time. I started running as a college freshman at 18, had a pretty nice jump (got down to 15:1x) and then made only incremental gains through my junior year (14:5x). My senior year I struggled some, then one week it all came together and I ended up (barely) breaking 14:20.

Sure, your. Or in your early 20s, but you have only been running for a couple of years. The cumulative miles may yet take their toll (in a good way).

Yeah I appreciate that, I've seen and felt it in my progression from amorphous slob to wherever I'm at now. But being stuck in the same place for a cple of years, it's started to feel like I'm just spinning my wheels a bit. Striking the right balance between patience and trying new things is not obvious. Thanks for the perspective on patience's virtue.

You can only run a 6:18 mile but you can hold 6:55 pace for 26.2 (3:01)?

Your marathon PR is better than the rest of your times. I'm guilty of the same but I don't think to that extent. Something tells me you run a lot of medium/slow miles. Get some speedwork done.

Congratulations on your achievements so far. Very impressive! I agree with those who suggested strength-training, be that long hill repeats, short steep hill sprints, body-weight exercises, and/or actual weight-training. Could be the missing ingredient that will propel you past your current plateau.

I would be cautious about adding mileage. I just don't believe the potential gains are worth the risks of overuse injuries. Sixty miles per week should be plenty to reach your goals.

Although I had a running background starting at age 13, after years of on and off training I was 30 pounds overweight and non-competitive by my late 30s. At 41, I decided to get serious again. That was in 2001 after walking most of the last six miles at Boston the previous spring.

I increased my mileage to a maximum of 60 mpw, but averaging maybe 45 or so. Lots of progression runs. Hill repeats. Upper-body weight work. VO2max repeats on a marked bike path and on the local high school track (usually 3 miles of 800m to 1600m with equal time recoveries). And a lot of 5K to half marathon races. I increased my long run to 16 miles, with a few 18-20 milers and a single 23-miler during a buildup to a 2003 marathon.

On marathon race day, approaching age 44, 2:56:04 was easy, despite not having broken 3 hrs in more than 20 years! Probably 13 marathons during those two decades, most in the 4-hour range.

So, strength work (hills, weights), plus moderate mileage, plus an emphasis on rest and recovery, plus long runs as part of the marathon buildup, plus progression runs (which included lactate threshold pace), plus vO2max repeats (for those shorter races and improving running economy) ... that's what worked for me!

Best wishes in reaching your goals.

From 40-44, age is not that big of an issue, especially if you are relatively new to running. 45+ is when you really have to make big adjustments in training to stay healthy and keep having good results.

I would say just be patient and try different training methods. The seven year rule in running (best times only come after seven years of solid training/racing) applies to older runners. It is very common to see big improvements for the first 2-3 years and then have things flatten out for a few years before the next breakthrough. So, be patient.

As for the training methods, there are no magic formulas for older runners. I tried Pete Magill's 5k plan and only got slower. But then I ran some very solid 5k/10k times after a very aggressive marathon training program with 70-90 mpw. Some people I know are the opposite.

I will say that racing consistently helps a lot, especially with 5k times. A 5k can be ruined by going out just 10-15 sec too fast the first mile. It takes a couple of tries just to get the pacing right. Then it will take another race or two to really capitalize on good training.

1. Don't do any marathons

2. Lift weights

3. Don't get injured

4. Do a lot of long hill repeats - up and down

5. Learn how to race. It can be learned.

I hate to get meta, but this is the sort of great old-school crowdsourced training thread we used to have around here, before endless self-referential snark and politics took us low. Keep it going! And thanks to the OP for asking.

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. Smoove is right: there may yet be a payoff for all the hard work. I second those who think that more speedwork may be needed. I never did very much as my 5K-to-half-marathon times dropped every year from age 45 to 51; I just ran hills, tempos (2 to 6 miles), long runs (14-15) with a fast second half, and then, pointing towards races, some repeat road miles, 2 or 3 at 10K/CV pace. Somehow that let me run down around 19:30 (6:18s, as I recall), but I rarely ran intervals shorter than 800 or faster than that.

Ah: with one exception. I did periodically substitute a 3-mile tempo/interval workout for a regular tempo, and maybe this was the key. I'd set my Garmin to lap at .25 miles, then alternate fast 400s with 400 floats. Towards the second half of the float I'd be back at tempo effort--and then kick into the next 400. I do that through two and a half miles--so that's five 400s and five floats--and then in the final half mile I'd run a hard 800 a bit slower than the hard 400s, and, in the final couple of hundred yards, imagine that I was hammering towards the finish of a 5K.

I think this is the same as the Mono Fartlek.

Anyway, it was a fun way of getting some speed out on the road. It works. It worked for me.

Actually, what I was doing was a modified, much tamer version of the Mono Fartlek. Scroll down to find a description of the original:

http://www.coolrunning.com.au/forums/index.php?showtopic=5897

Lots of folks that I know do a similar workout and we call it "in and out 400s."

It is a little different in that the fast 400s are at 5k pace, and the slow 400s are just a little slower than marathon pace, with the end result that the entire workout averages just about tempo pace, maybe a smidge faster. I think that the recovery bouts are still fast enough that you don't clear the lactic acid and associated byproducts, so you get an LT adaptation, but at the same time, you get some work in at locking in 5k race pace.

While I have never done the workout myself, the physiology of it seems sounds to me (noting I am a lawyer and not a physiologist).

Precious Roy wrote:

From 40-44, age is not that big of an issue, especially if you are relatively new to running.

Yeah, in my early 40s, I still felt like I could train hard, and not require days and days of recovery. But race times sure took a beating.

Age 43 versus age 23, my 5K pace was slower than my previous 10K pace. Of course, it only gets worse from there ... now at 58, my 5K pace is slower than my age 23 marathon pace!

And I need days and days of recovery following hard training efforts.

Thank you all for the wonderful tips! And good to hear that I am not the only one struggling with this.

This is what I gather from your comments:

A) focus on shorter distances for a while

B) focus on speed/hill work

C) Strength train

I couldn't agree more.

A)

I have already signed up for the following 3 races for the rest of the year:

-hilly 10K road race, mid August

-half marathon, mid September

-California International Marathon (CIM), beginning of December

After that, I will focus on shorter distances

B)

I will start incorporating more of that asap

C)

I actually strength train several times per week using what my coaches have given me as well as material from the web. But I think I spend more time working on stuff that is not directly related to running (mostly due to vanity, I like to be ripped, so lots of upper body stuff like pullups/pushups/dips as compared with lower body exercises like squats, plyometrics, deadlifts, form drills, core work, etc...). I know the upper body stuff is somehow useful for running as well, but not as much as the lower ...

Some questions:

1) If I can spend 15 min everyday working on strength work that is very focused to running, what do you recommend? Will doing a very simple but consistent exercises every morning after waking (for example, x number of squats and lunges) will pay off in a few weeks/months time?

2)How about cross training? I have a gym membership and can go to 2 spinning classes per week. Maybe that will compensate for the "low" mileage that some of you have pointed out (even though, I think 60mpw is plenty)

3)I have changed my diet a bit compared to the time when I did 3:01 with low mileage. Back then, I didn't follow any diet as such and ate basically everything. The past couple of years, I have stopped eating breakfast unless I run in the morning and I try to avoid bread and other processed carbs, getting most of my carbs from fruits/veggies. And also has upped my protein intake a bit (no powders/supplements except some essential amino acids I started taking about a month ago, so mostly just more eggs/meat/nuts)

Getting on T helps alot too

First workout to add in after ba

Hills 1 x week

Then a long interval day

3/4 to 1 miles at intermediate pace

Still

Need some basic speed development

100's sprints

Strides

faster_wannabe wrote:

.....

A)

I have already signed up for the following 3 races for the rest of the year:

-hilly 10K road race, mid August

-half marathon, mid September

-California International Marathon (CIM), beginning of December

After that, I will focus on shorter distances

......

I am going to point out the obvious. If you evaluate yourself based on improving PRs in races, then pick your races carefully. I've heard CIM is a good one but don't beat yourself up if the "hilly 10k road race" doesn't result in a PR.

It's far easier to get "fit" after 40, then it is to get "fast."

Be realistic with goals.

If not, it'll be a very frustrating mid-life crisis. 😕

faster_wannabe wrote:

C)

I actually strength train several times per week using what my coaches have given me as well as material from the web. But I think I spend more time working on stuff that is not directly related to running (mostly due to vanity, I like to be ripped, so lots of upper body stuff like pullups/pushups/dips as compared with lower body exercises like squats, plyometrics, deadlifts, form drills, core work, etc...). I know the upper body stuff is somehow useful for running as well, but not as much as the lower ...

2)How about cross training? I have a gym membership and can go to 2 spinning classes per week. Maybe that will compensate for the "low" mileage that some of you have pointed out (even though, I think 60mpw is plenty)

C) Be wary of overdoing upper body strength training that develops arms, chest, back etc as you'll be lugging "dead weight" when running. You don't want to look like Ryan Hall as he is now for example. Core strength is useful though. For leg strength, get this through running over hills, hill repeats and sprinting.

2) Cross training with spin classes - yes. Or you could also do longer (hour plus) aerobic biking and elliptical sessions on easy running days or as an easy day now and then. Running is specific muscularly though so most of your training should be running.

After the races you've signed up for, or even now, think about the speed you need to be able to race an 800m without it feeling like a full on sprint all the way. For example, to race 5k in 17:30 you'd want to be racing 800m in 2:20 or faster. That's 17.5 seconds per 100 meters. So you need to be comfortable running a session of 10 or 15 x 100m in 16 seconds.

You'd have to do a shitload of upper body to have huge arms. I'm 40, lift for 45 min to an hour 3 or 4 times per week and my arms are not a problem when I run. I usually run a harder mileage week followed by a recovery week. I've been able to reach 55M or so last week and on my easy weeks I run 25-30M. In training I was able to run 19:20 for 5K and my PR is 18:20 a few years back *just checked it was 4 years ago.

I'm trying to get in sub 18 shape by the end of the year. I think I'm not too far off. I usually do 2 workouts per week (a longer interval workout and either a short interval workout or a hill workout) and a long run every other weekend. I feel like I'm slowly getting in great shape. Age shouldn't be a limiting factor.

Also I do strides after all my runs that are not workouts. I think that helps develop speed. I have better raw speed than you but maybe you're just an endurance monster. I couldn't run 3:01 in the marathon, that's for sure!

400 : 62

800: 2:20

1k: 3:00

Mile : 5'10

5K : 18:20

10K : 38:40

1/2 : 1:27:59

Full : 3:23:xx

I used to be faster when I was doing strength training but I also felt like I was tired all the time and sore for workouts so now I don't do strength for lower body anymore.