OH WOW... Nick Symmonds taking on Hyperandrogenism

It is super easy, sorry it is. So easy even my 2.25 year old gets it with near 100% accuracy. There are very few things in the world that are simpler or understood earlier in life.

People pull out obscure examples, to try to make it appear more complicated than it is, which is generally done in a attempt not to help those outliers but rather obfuscate the issue to allow clear cheaters the cover they need.

Again if you have a Y and/or ever had testes then you are open. No Y and no testes then go for the biologically female division. That definition is super simple to follow in 99.99% of cases and very clear in the remainder of cases.

These obscure examples are exactly what the sport is dealing with. It's not like we are trying to find men dressed as woman. It's individuals who may have one of many obscure mutations that aren't simply limited to the presence of a Y chromosome or testes.

My point is only that it isn't simple and it benefits no one to pretend otherwise. If we use such a simple definition there will still be athletes who fall through the cracks.

Personally, I don't think Semenya should compete against other women. Calling her a cheater though is a bit harsh.

It's not easy at all! I assume you are saying your 2 year old can decide by looking at a person and deciding if they is male or female based upon what you have taught your kid to understand? That doesn't cut it.

Or are you saying your 2 year old is a genetics expert?

The whole reason these rules were changed was because of Dutee Chand, who falls into the 0.01% (as you put it, in reality there are many more people like her) who looks, sounds, and is entirely female in every way but has naturally high serum testosterone levels.

Dutee Chand does not look or perform like a man because she doesn't respond to testosterone.

You need to remember that everyone is born female by default. Changes during your development cause you to become a male or continue developing as a female. Dutee Chand didn't undergo those changes, so in what way is she a male?

Muddy Waters wrote:

These obscure examples are exactly what the sport is dealing with. It's not like we are trying to find men dressed as woman. It's individuals who may have one of many obscure mutations that aren't simply limited to the presence of a Y chromosome or testes.

My point is only that it isn't simple and it benefits no one to pretend otherwise. If we use such a simple definition there will still be athletes who fall through the cracks.

Personally, I don't think Semenya should compete against other women. Calling her a cheater though is a bit harsh.

This right here is the problem in our society: the obscure and the bizarre minority fringes are driving discussions, actions and culture. It's insane, total insanity. The tail wagging the dog. Not even a tail, it's one hair on the tail waging the dog.

Fertile woman vs Fertile woman

Fertile man vs Fertile man

Freaks vs Freaks

First off, this discussion is about athletics.

Second, I think you misunderstood me. I was arguing that we need a precise definition beyond the simple answers already offered. Otherwise athletes will fall through the cracks, as in athletes who shouldn't compete against women will be allowed to if we use a simple definition.

Of course if you just wanted to rant about minorities, go right ahead.

The woman in the 800m should get together and protest at a meet. Let the gun go off and let the men in their race take off. Once the men have run about 300m, hold a race amongst themselves.

If it's an XX individual with natural high T that's a genetic advantage, like being tall for basket ball. If it has a Y chromosome of any kind it's a male, straight up unfair.

Muddy Waters wrote:

I was arguing that we need a precise definition beyond the simple answers already offered. Otherwise athletes will fall through the cracks, as in athletes who shouldn't compete against women will be allowed to if we use a simple definition.

No matter the definition, someone will always fall through the cracks. Even if you were to hash this out with chromosomes and arbitrary lab values, someone's going to be left out.

john utah wrote:

Muddy Waters wrote:

These obscure examples are exactly what the sport is dealing with. It's not like we are trying to find men dressed as woman. It's individuals who may have one of many obscure mutations that aren't simply limited to the presence of a Y chromosome or testes.

My point is only that it isn't simple and it benefits no one to pretend otherwise. If we use such a simple definition there will still be athletes who fall through the cracks.

Personally, I don't think Semenya should compete against other women. Calling her a cheater though is a bit harsh.

This right here is the problem in our society: the obscure and the bizarre minority fringes are driving discussions, actions and culture. It's insane, total insanity. The tail wagging the dog. Not even a tail, it's one hair on the tail waging the dog.

johns expert idea - don't consider anyone who isnt in the majority. if youre not like a typical man or woman, you can't compete because we refuse to use any sort of logic to decide how to classify you. johns feelings are that this has to be simple and johns feelings are the most important thing!

Muddy Waters wrote:

First off, this discussion is about athletics.

Second, I think you misunderstood me. I was arguing that we need a precise definition beyond the simple answers already offered. Otherwise athletes will fall through the cracks, as in athletes who shouldn't compete against women will be allowed to if we use a simple definition.

Of course if you just wanted to rant about minorities, go right ahead.

Here is definition that has worked for millions of years and billions of people: you're male or female. Maybe there are extremely rare biological abnormalities with some people, but extremely rare exceptions should be almost ignored in terms of rules, discussions, norms, etc. There are always extremely rare exceptions in every facet of life. We should not be focusing time and energy on these things. Basic common sense would tell you that. You end up with total chaos.

Why are you even reading this thread if you think rare exceptions should be ignored?

Keep ignoring Caster and let her keep winning.

He has no expertise and is only trying to promote himself post-career

Bio Men out of women's race wrote:

If it's an XX individual with natural high T that's a genetic advantage, like being tall for basket ball. If it has a Y chromosome of any kind it's a male, straight up unfair.

This is the correct answer

next please wrote:

john utah wrote:

This right here is the problem in our society: the obscure and the bizarre minority fringes are driving discussions, actions and culture. It's insane, total insanity. The tail wagging the dog. Not even a tail, it's one hair on the tail waging the dog.

johns expert idea - don't consider anyone who isnt in the majority. if youre not like a typical man or woman, you can't compete because we refuse to use any sort of logic to decide how to classify you. johns feelings are that this has to be simple and johns feelings are the most important thing!

Err, no, that would be half the population's ability to compete successfully in their chosen sport, not just John (whose views are just a bit more well adjusted than yours!)

some actual logic wrote:

Bio Men out of women's race wrote:

If it's an XX individual with natural high T that's a genetic advantage, like being tall for basket ball. If it has a Y chromosome of any kind it's a male, straight up unfair.

This is the correct answer

What if it is XX and has an SRY translocated on an X chrom?

Forgive the ignorance, but is it possible for artificial testosterone to pass as 'naturally elevated' levels of testosterone in women? Or even men for that matter?

meg the great wrote:

Forgive the ignorance, but is it possible for artificial testosterone to pass as 'naturally elevated' levels of testosterone in women? Or even men for that matter?

No.

NickRantsWOW wrote:

has anyone seen this yet?? He makes some pretty good points..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8DnoVOCkA

I concur, I think XX and XY should have a separate race or competition to make it a fair assessment, no? Seriously, it seems like common sense. Fair game period.

Sad but True wrote:

Fertile woman vs Fertile woman

Fertile man vs Fertile man

Freaks vs Freaks

Classic 👬 👭