STUDY: Seattle Minimum Wage Increase Hurts Low Wage Workers

X-Runner wrote:

Yes. Business closing because the costs are too high could be a result of this.

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

-FDR

With all of that said, minimum wage type of jobs shouldn't be for full time workers.

They are meant for students and young people getting some spending money.

Not parents or for adults looking for full means to live off of.

But if you create a business that does rely on full time workers but you can't pay a living wage, then you have a bad business.

Minimum wage jobs are not "for" students, young people, or any other demographic. Minimum wage jobs are jobs.

If you do not have enough money, then you shouldn't start a family yet. If your job isn't paying enough, find a better job and/or learn a new skill that pays more.

Lastly, there is no such thing as a "living wage". A minimum wage job is already enough to afford the basics.

Math clearly isn't your strong point. Neither is economics.

Post an article on Briedbard about it Captain Von Mises.

oil worker wrote:

the letter why wrote:

And what kind of salaries are you and the rest of corporate making? Serious question.

I get that the low wage jobs are the first ones cut. But CEOs always seem to be raking in big bonuses anyway.

The question to follow yours is: How much more value does Pizza boy bring to the company?

I work in oil & gas, and the value I bring to the company is worth tens of millions a year. I'm literally many times more valuable than the guy working at the gas station.

I think the real issue here is that you over value yourself and undoubtedly are a huge douche that thinks you're better than everyone else.

Pizza boy wrote:

I work at the corporate level for a major pizza chain. We had to close several of our Seattle stores because the higher prices we had to charge due to the minimum wage killed their sales. Those people who used to work there fir $10.00/hr now make nothing.

.[/quote]

That's really odd because I can't find any national pizza chains that closed several of their stores in Seattle. I did find a NYP bar and grill that opened one restaurant in Seattle that immediately started losing 5k/week and ended up bankrupting the whole company. I found a Zpizza franchise (one) that closed even before the higher wage went in to effect essentially just using it as an excuse.

I did find this interesting article though.

Good times are killing me wrote:

I think the real issue here is that you over value yourself and undoubtedly are a huge douche that thinks you're better than everyone else.

I can't be sure of everyone else, but I'm probably better than you.

One argument against minimum wage hikes is that it hurts smaller businesses.

But the largest employers of minimum wage workers are McDonalds and Walmart - who make billions of dollars in profits.

Now they make their money on scale, they have a lot of locations and it ads up.

McDonalds makes a ton charging franchise fees and leaves the struggle of operating costs to the franchise owners.

Kiosks and automation are a natural evolution of business. Like manufacturing was an evolution over hand crafting everything.

If computers and automation leads to fewer but higher paid employees at a location that's good.

One major goal is to have good wages.

Technology makes workers more productive. You can do more with a power drill than with a basic screw driver.

If you produce more, you should get paid more.

It seems like that means fewer jobs but there are more jobs out there than before.

The demand for technology jobs (that create those efficiencies) is on the rise.

The higher demand for consumption means there are more McDonalds, more Walmarts, more Starbucks going up which will need employees - even if it's fewer employers per location than before.

Every month, 100,000 to 200,000 jobs gets added to the economy.

The argument about minimum wage is mostly moot because supply and demand pushes the vast majority of wages above the legal minimum.

But the some of the most profitable companies are the ones most likely to pay whatever the legal minimum is. They will keep their big profits and bonuses and make us all pay taxes for their employee's medicaid, food stamps and subsidized housing.

At least with fast food workers at the counter, what value do they add to the business? I would just get rid of them and replace them with kiosks. Have one line with a cashier for cash only and those who can't kiosk.

Based on an informal poll of ~20 runners I know, I have concluded that the more opposed someone is to wage-protection-laws the slower their 5k time is and the faster they think they are.

Jamin would go slightly against this trend.

racket wrote:

Perhaps, but I'm skeptical a healthy business with a good business model was done in by a minimum wage increase. Businesses that had to close were likely already on their way out.

mind blowing wrote:

Work 4 Free wrote:

Yes, low paid workers should work for billionaires for free. Just like in the days of feudalism.

A super-high minimum wage simply isn't a viable solution to the issues you raise. I agree with you that the problem exists, but if you actually care about it, you should be working toward a solution that works instead of pushing a policy that any high school economics student could poke holes in.

This ^

x 1000

oil worker wrote:

Good times are killing me wrote:

I think the real issue here is that you over value yourself and undoubtedly are a huge douche that thinks you're better than everyone else.

I can't be sure of everyone else, but I'm probably better than you.

True dat.

At the same time I am better than you which makes you 1-1. Good times is now 0-2 (must suck).

This Manly Man wrote:

oil worker wrote:

I can't be sure of everyone else, but I'm probably better than you.

True dat.

At the same time I am better than you which makes you 1-1. Good times is now 0-2 (must suck).

I'm not better than anyone in real life, but online I "identify" as better than everyone else, so respect my self esteem or you won't be able to bake cakes or sell pizzas.

The article start out "If you’re a leftist in San Francisco or Oakland" ...

Seems a bit biased, but I looked for the details.

It didn't have much. It's the usual correlation isn't always causation.

Here's another article on the same situation an San Francisco area:

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/24/whats-behind-the-spate-of-recent-bay-area-restaurant-closures/

So, despite offering higher wages there is a labor shortage.

They are having trouble filling positions. A lower wage would not help attract people that a higher wage couldn't.

They are having to change their model to getting food out quicker and not providing full service.

They are competing with the rise of corporate cafeterias (Google has a nice one).

And it's an expensive area to live and some are cutting back on eating out as much or looking for cheaper options.

A lower minimum wage wasn't going to help those restaurants if they couldn't find local workers who wouldn't take the job at a higher wage.

Maybe the full service industry in the San Fran area shrunk while other food industries in that area grew even with a higher minimum wage.

I have 4 minimum wage employees if it changes to $15 I will only have 2...and figure out a solution to replace the other 2... I have already started planning and it's possible to be a bit more efficient and change a few processes... I can't justify $60 dollars an hour for 4 people for 6-8 hours per day. $360-$480 per day exceeds the profit I can make to justify the work.

I think people who don't Employ people haven't realized there is a limit to the profits a company can generate. You can't charge $10 for a cup a coffee/or a burger....or how about your next $35 dollar pizza delivered?....even though Starbucks is trying there is a limit to what people will pay for a service or item.

I employ people wrote:

I have 4 minimum wage employees if it changes to $15 I will only have 2...and figure out a solution to replace the other 2... I have already started planning and it's possible to be a bit more efficient and change a few processes... I can't justify $60 dollars an hour for 4 people for 6-8 hours per day. $360-$480 per day exceeds the profit I can make to justify the work.

I think people who don't Employ people haven't realized there is a limit to the profits a company can generate. You can't charge $10 for a cup a coffee/or a burger....or how about your next $35 dollar pizza delivered?....even though Starbucks is trying there is a limit to what people will pay for a service or item.

I guess you don't have a "healthy" business model.

First, there is no serious talk of the federal minimum wage being immediately changed to $15/hour.

It's $7.25 right now. It's been $7.25 since 2009.

There are suggested incremental increases over time to keep up with inflation.

A straight jump to $15 would be devastating. I totally agree.

Is absolute minimum wage coincidentally the amount you pay your employees or do you think you could get the same work done if people could accept less?

typical letsrun liberal wrote:

I employ people wrote:

I have 4 minimum wage employees if it changes to $15 I will only have 2...and figure out a solution to replace the other 2... I have already started planning and it's possible to be a bit more efficient and change a few processes... I can't justify $60 dollars an hour for 4 people for 6-8 hours per day. $360-$480 per day exceeds the profit I can make to justify the work.

I think people who don't Employ people haven't realized there is a limit to the profits a company can generate. You can't charge $10 for a cup a coffee/or a burger....or how about your next $35 dollar pizza delivered?....even though Starbucks is trying there is a limit to what people will pay for a service or item.

I guess you don't have a "healthy" business model.

That's right. You have no right to exist in FDR's Utopian State.

mind blowing wrote:

Work 4 Free wrote:

Yes, low paid workers should work for billionaires for free. Just like in the days of feudalism.

A super-high minimum wage simply isn't a viable solution to the issues you raise. I agree with you that the problem exists, but if you actually care about it, you should be working toward a solution that works instead of pushing a policy that any high school economics student could poke holes in.

Both of you make points that both 'sides' need to understand.

1) Poor people need more money. How in the world would you support a family on $10 an hour?

2) Many businesses simply can't survive a $15 per hour minimum wage. I read the average McDonalds makes $150 k per store. If it's open 18 hours per day, that's 22 per hour in profit. If they are 8 workers at a given time, if you increase their pay by $3 an hour, they are losing money.

I don't like how some conservative guy reads a study that says "Higher minimum wages hurt workers" and feels all smug. What is there to be smug about? Guess what, we still have a slew of peole in this country who work hard and are struggling to get by.

Every time I go to a Mcdonalds at like 530 am on my way to a business trip, I think to myself, "This worker is amazing. She's up at 5 in the morning, working for very little money." And yet some guy who took a few econ classes in college is gloating that higher minimum wage isn't going to work.

How about this, "Come up with a solution."

oil worker wrote:

the letter why wrote:

And what kind of salaries are you and the rest of corporate making? Serious question.

I get that the low wage jobs are the first ones cut. But CEOs always seem to be raking in big bonuses anyway.

The question to follow yours is: How much more value does Pizza boy bring to the company?

I work in oil & gas, and the value I bring to the company is worth tens of millions a year. I'm literally many times more valuable than the guy working at the gas station.

Your reasoning is exactly why unions were founded and remain so essential (despite successful right-wing efforts to discredit them). Yes, in a 1-to-1 comparison, you bring more value to the company than one guy working the gas pump in Poughkeepsie; he presumably could be replaced much more easily than you. But his position is absolutely necessary (for now) to the proper functioning of your company. The position, not the person, is worth lots more than those holding the position are being compensated. But because working folks are fighting for scraps, someone will eventually take the job for whatever chickenfeed is being paid to do it. The job is essential; the worker is not. We have mistaken the disposability of individual workers for the insignificance of their jobs.

What unions do is to help eliminate that distinction. We are the job, they say; you want this job at your company, you get one of us. It sounds like bullying only if you're precious about your own unique skill set and the value you ascribe to it. What unions are saying is, don't pay us what each individual is "worth"; because we know that there are many with our skill-set (which drives down the value of any one individual with those skills), we are compelling you to pay us based on the value of the job to the company. Who gets to determine value to a company? Well, that's determined through bargaining and striking. These are market corrections in action.

In short, your attitude totally validates the entire unionizing project. And I wonder if a minimum wage creates a sort of very loose union: not a trade union, per se, but a union of people who believe that work--of even the most menial sort--has a value of $x/hour.