maybe one of the pacers farted
maybe one of the pacers farted
Guys. Come on. This is easy.
Matt fking Withrow
How many of these others fools took down a Kenyan stud and the poster boy of the mighty mighty Nike drug machine IN THE SAME RACE???
Back when Footlocker still mattered
Petemths70 wrote:
I am a huge Craig Virgin Fan!!! Winning world cross twice is a major accomplishment. I would also rank him as one of the best ever, but don't be all consumed with his record lasting as long as it has. I am from Illinois and ran on the State meet course in the late 80's. The course has always had the same layout, but the flags have been moved to slightly change the distance of the course multiple times. I go back quite often to watch the meet, and no disrespect to Craig Virgin, but with the way the course is flagged and has been flagged over the last 20 years or so, Chris Derrick should be the course record holder. In my mind Verzbicas also should have a faster time than Virgin. Even Joe Newton has been quoted as saying that back when Craig Virgin won the course was run much shorter. Once again, no disrespect to Craig Virgin-he's not only one of the all time great high school runners, but also one of the best Americans ever!!
Interesting you'd say this. I went down state to watch as a kid in 77,79&80. The guys on my schools team complained about the back triangle having a tighter turn than back in '74. I ran down there 85,86,87 and the back triangle I swear was a little different then in the late 70s,80(slightly longer). I've gone back as a spectator multiple other times and have not seen the course change but the back triangle is different than I remember it. (Running along the road and tree line on the third leg of the triangle.) BTW I remember people complaining when Graves and Spivey ran.
Regardless I'll always say Virgin is the best from a completely biased opinion.
Who is Bjorn Torgstein? When you google his name you get exactly one entry.
I get more than that for myself!!!
Has this guy even broke 14 for the 5K?
Thank you!
Hurl wrote:
You have to remember that to 99 percent of the LR community, the earth was created in 2000 or so. Absolutely NOTHING happened in any way, shape or form before that year.
toomanyspikes wrote:
Pappy wrote:Craig Virgin. His record has withstood 44 years of people trying to break it. The only worthy argument could be Ritz.
This is all assuming that you're referring to his 3 mile record in Illinois, so if you're not, then just disregard whatever I say next.
This is hard to disagree with, but also pretty hard to agree with. Yeah there have been studs like Chris Derrick and Lukas Verzbicas who came pretty close to that record and they were phenomenal, so that's a good comparison. I would argue for Ritz just because his 5k HS record is a lot easier to compare with since the 5k is MUCH more popular then the 3 mile now and more stud athletes can be compared to it. Also the fact he DESTROYED Webb and Hall at Foot Locker. Anyway. For example you can say Verzbicas broke 4 in tough conditions and didn't beat Virgin's record, but you could also argue that Drew Hunter ran 3:57 and was 10 seconds off of Ritz's record on a lightning fast course.
TLDR: I would argue for Ritz since his 5k record is easier to compare to HS boys than a 3 mile and because he dismantled the guys who went on to become (arguably) America's best miler and marathoner.
Sorry TooManySpikes,
There have been many more 3 mile CC races before the 5K rule. In addition there were more good runners in any event before the year 1980. The fact you were not born yet has nothing to do with it!
Focus wrote:
Quite simply who is the best cross runner in high school history.
This thread got many responses because you really cannot compare eras, especially when courses, distances, and weather changes.
However it's insulting to guys like Frank Shorter, Steve Prefontaine, Craig Virgin, Rudy Chapa, and many others when you post that a guy no one has ever heard of and likely has never even broke 14 for the 5K is the greatest high school cross country runner ever!
One guy said it well. "99% of LRC was born before 1990. Nothing that happened before that actually happened in their puny, undeveloped brains!"
(Okay I changed it just a little to make it more accurate.)
It's true that the brain is still not fully developed until one is 25. This thread PROVES that!
Virgin's 13:50 is one of the greatest individual XC performances of all time, alongside Ritz's 14:10 Michigan State and Fernandez's 14:24 Clovis.
That said, I think Ritz edges Virgin in the all-time greats (for XC--Virgin wins it on the track). Double FL wins against arguably the strongest field ever + the beyond unapproachable Michigan record + WJ bronze is a pretty damn impressive resume. The guys from the early '70s should also be in the conversation (Hulst, Serna, Chapa, and perhaps Kimball and Hunt, although the latter two were stronger on the track).
Rudy Chapa. I'm biased since I grew up in Indiana and graduated the same year he did (76). 4:04 mile and 28:32 10,000.
Junior year at CC State Meet, he and Pinkowski intentionally tied for the win. They went 11:59 for the 2.5 miles. They had everyone smoked. The excitement was who would win the kick? Then they held hands at the tape. Incredible meet. Keough finished 5th.
Rudy lost to Carey in XC Rudy's sophomore year.
cali boy wrote:
Virgin's 13:50 is one of the greatest individual XC performances of all time, alongside Ritz's 14:10 Michigan State and Fernandez's 14:24 Clovis.
That said, I think Ritz edges Virgin in the all-time greats (for XC--Virgin wins it on the track). Double FL wins against arguably the strongest field ever + the beyond unapproachable Michigan record + WJ bronze is a pretty damn impressive resume. The guys from the early '70s should also be in the conversation (Hulst, Serna, Chapa, and perhaps Kimball and Hunt, although the latter two were stronger on the track).
Reality is that it is pretty much impossible to pick any one guy and our impressions are colored a lot by what happened afterwards (either as a senior or just putting up some fast track times). There isn't much reason to think that Pre, Virgin, Salazer, Hulst and the rest were noticeably better (or worse) than Ritz, Hunter, Verbzasic (SP) and the rest of the modern guys. If you were in HS when someone was dominating (I remember Reubina Reina being a god).
For girls, I would vote for meolody fairchild.
Has to be Amber Trotter
Can't believe this guy hasn't been in the discussion more, but what about Lukas Verzbicas. I'm not arguing that he should be #1, but he should at least be mentioned the top 4-5. The guy is a double Foot Locker winner, won nxn and fl in the same year by large margins. Especially in his last fl win, he "cruised" to a sub 15 and looked so easy throughout the entire race. He could've gotten Reinas record. Now when you consider that his track resume was even better, it makes it all the more impressive.
Pappy wrote:
Petemths70 wrote:I am a huge Craig Virgin Fan!!! Winning world cross twice is a major accomplishment. I would also rank him as one of the best ever, but don't be all consumed with his record lasting as long as it has. I am from Illinois and ran on the State meet course in the late 80's. The course has always had the same layout, but the flags have been moved to slightly change the distance of the course multiple times. I go back quite often to watch the meet, and no disrespect to Craig Virgin, but with the way the course is flagged and has been flagged over the last 20 years or so, Chris Derrick should be the course record holder. In my mind Verzbicas also should have a faster time than Virgin. Even Joe Newton has been quoted as saying that back when Craig Virgin won the course was run much shorter. Once again, no disrespect to Craig Virgin-he's not only one of the all time great high school runners, but also one of the best Americans ever!!
Interesting you'd say this. I went down state to watch as a kid in 77,79&80. The guys on my schools team complained about the back triangle having a tighter turn than back in '74. I ran down there 85,86,87 and the back triangle I swear was a little different then in the late 70s,80(slightly longer). I've gone back as a spectator multiple other times and have not seen the course change but the back triangle is different than I remember it. (Running along the road and tree line on the third leg of the triangle.) BTW I remember people complaining when Graves and Spivey ran.
Regardless I'll always say Virgin is the best from a completely biased opinion.
I was part of a group of people who got together in 2008 to answer this question. I personally talked to Joe Newton and he was not sure if the length of the course had changed and he had no records of the course length over the years, so that was a dead end. He was sure that it measured short of three miles because he heard of people using walking wheels who had said so. We already knew that walking wheels were not reliable for measuring grass courses.
We went to Detweiller and reconstructed the original 1971 course based on pictures taken at the time along with first hand knowledge of those who had run back then. The back loop was indeed different, but so was the start/finish location. Overall, both the old course and new course were run over the same basic terrain with the same elevation changes, roughly a total of 90 feet drop/ascent. We measured both the new course and the old course using the shortest possible route SPR method and found that they were within 40 feet of each other. Well within the margin of error incurred when we recreated the old course. The new course was 2.9758 SPR miles. That is what Derrick and LV ran. In 2003 + 2004, the course was 2.9883 miles, but that was a temporary aberration.
Our research showed that both courses were calibrated to 3.0 miles using the NFHS rules where the course is measured down the middle of the path, a completely idiotic way of specifying a course. If a path width of 12 feet is assumed, then Detweiller would be 3.000 miles according to NFHS rules, but measure 2.975 miles according to USATF rules due to the turns. So the course was "3.0 miles" according to the rules, but would have measured short by any sane person cutting the corners closely.
The best effort to date shows that times run on the old course can be directly compared to newer times with the 2003/4 exception.
I'm pretty sure Verzbicas never lost a high school cross country race, so that should be put on the scale in his favor. If he had not been injured in his first year of high school he may have been a 3 time State and less likely even a 3 time National champ. He also was eligible to run one more year but went directly to college after three years of high school. He was a year old for his grade.
Wow, three pages in and nobody has stated the obvious.
Uuuuummmmmm....ever heard of Jordan Hasay?
Sara Baxter and Ritz
Everyone was on drugs according to IAAF.
Ritz and Trotter.
Blast it Steve! wrote:
Who is Bjorn Torgstein? When you google his name you get exactly one entry.
I get more than that for myself!!!
Has this guy even broke 14 for the 5K?
This is the point. Bjorn does not care about fans or fame from running, it is just part of who he is, which is why many people in my area think that he walked away when he started to get a small following in NY. He was a quiet dude with an immense talent never seen before, and perhaps the earth will never see again. I hope he is quietly out there, silently breaking 2 hours for the marathon during his long runs, and still having the range to dip under 13:00 in the 5k. I am just happy to be able to say that I saw the dude once and it was a blessing.
Marc Davis 14:38 at Woodward Park. Record stood until Fernandez destroyed it. Meb, Hall and others couldn't come close. 14:38 for XC 5000m at Woodward Park is easily sub 14 on the track.