Road Racing & Training Thread: Week Ending 18 June 2017

Orion Parker wrote:

With Hansons I felt strong but not fast. I could run "marathon pace" really well but M pace - 10sec was just hard.

This is an interesting concern about Hansons...if you're training for a marathon, isn't the goal to be able to run marathon pace really well?

A few thoughts on Marathon-Pace training.

When I was racing in my 40s, I based my training largely on the schedules in Pfitzinger's 1999 "Road Racing for Serious Runners" -- which were based largely on Daniels' research and theories. But even in his marathon plans, Pfitzinger did not include any marathon-pace runs. He suggested finishing some of the long runs at half-marathon pace, which would be in the realm of threshold pace.

However, in Pfitzinger's 2009 "Advanced Marathoning" second edition, he strongly advocates the value of marathon-pace training, citing the "principle of specificity of training." His 55-70 mpw schedule includes four long runs (16, 18, 16, 18 miles) with 8, 10, 12 and 14 miles, respectively, at marathon pace.

I'm not convinced of the importance of dedicated marathon-pace mileage. Daniels ("Running Formula" third edition), while including marathon-pace training in his plans, says that the ONLY benefit, beyond what one would get from an easy-paced run, is psychological.

My current training is based on the more recent Pfitzinger schedules, and I admit the concept of running 14 miles at marathon pace -- during an 18-mile run -- is very intimidating. And maybe overly taxing. I think shorter mileage at Lactate Threshold would be more productive.

I've never previously incorporated marathon-pace training, and I don't recall ever having trouble dialing in marathon pace from the very start of any of my marathons. My training specifically included ONLY faster paces, and slower paces. But on race day, marathon pace seems to come naturally.

As examples, in my most recent sub-3 marathon, I averaged 6:43 per mile; my first mile of the race was 6:45 (and it had been two years since my last marathon). In last fall's marathon (after 13 years without running a marathon), I averaged 7:51 per mile; the first mile as 8:00, then exactly 7:51 per mile for the next three miles. And I don't wear (or own) a GPS watch or the like ... I just start out at what intuitively is "marathon pace."

That said, I will attempt the four Pfitizinger marathon-pace long runs. Maybe there is some huge benefit I've been missing out on all these years!

Anyone participating in the USATF letsrun prediction contest. Just got my picks! Anyone know if Ajee' Wilson is running? I picked her to win the 800 meters, but she's apparently on a ban.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

Orion Parker wrote:

With Hansons I felt strong but not fast. I could run "marathon pace" really well but M pace - 10sec was just hard.

This is an interesting concern about Hansons...if you're training for a marathon, isn't the goal to be able to run marathon pace really well?

You are correct but it just didn't seem to work for me. There were so many marathon pace miles with no tempo pace added in that I just felt stagnant and sluggish. As I would get tired, I would quickly get into the "working too hard" range for the pace I was running. Maybe I did something wrong...have you had better experiences?

I don't know how I feel about tons of M Pace miles honestly. I'm kind of like Allen in that I think they do more for the mental side of things than the physical. I love doing longer repeats and tempos at HM Pace. I feel like it gives me a snappier feel and if I need to push a bit it doesn't feel like I'm trying to sprint.

Allen, Orion, Gordon...

This is such a tough question--to do M pace or not? As Allen knows, I did lots of M pace work in my NYC build-up, and was disappointed with my NYC performance. I live in a hilly area, and so my M work was not the typical or textbook method of, say, a warmup and then 10-14 at M pace, and then a cool down. Around here, it is tough to do much in that type of structured manner, with all of the hills. So, I would do long runs where my aim was to average M pace, or close to it, starting slower, and then finishing faster, usually at threshold pace. Some of these runs were quite long and rather sucessful, two of which were 18 at 6:51 overall and 22 at 6:53 overall (6:51.9 being 3:00 marathon pace). To me, this should work even better than the standard M pace session, but, as I have indicated, I was disappointed with my run at the NYCM...bad quad and ham pain starting at about the mile 20 mark. Never felt like that in any other long run or race.

So, I think there are a number of factors for my failure, which I am trying to address, but the question still reamins about M pace running. To me, experience at goal race pace would seem invaluable, especially since, for me, M pace is one of the more "doable" paces, whereas vo2max stuff tends to give me the creeps.

Perhaps the answer depends upon what type of runner you are, or perhaps even what type of person you are?

For the physiology side of it, I defer to Mr. Smoove.

All the best...

I could see that.

I've only used it once, and this year was the first time I ever went over 40 miles in a week, and my race day was slightly outside of ideal conditions, so I don't have enough background to say whether the 16min PR was based on the fact that it included tons of MP miles or just the fact that my total volume was nearly double what I had done in college for a marathon (likely the volume was the big difference). And I don't know if the missing my "A" goal was more a fault of the plan or the weather on the day.

But, my experience with the actual MP workouts was that they were actually more of a confidence boost for me more than they hurt me on the mental side, especially since I was in a whole new realm of total workload and marathon goals than ever before, they helped provide a frame of reference that I was generally headed in the right direction (I hadn't broken 1:35 before March of this year, then ran sub 3:10 at Grandma's...so I consider it a general success even though I trained for a little faster time than I hit).

I also think to some extent it seems like it's the Hanson's goal to not let you feel snappy during marathon training. It can be a slog, and I hate to use a coach's marketing buzz phrases, but if they want you to be "cummulatively fatigued" can you really feel snappy before race day? I felt much snappier at the start of the race than I ever did in training...but admittedly that faded quickly with the humidity.

I absolutely dread marathon pace workouts. The only way the 13 miles at marathon pace workouts are ever comfortable for me is if I run a half marathon race at marathon pace. Otherwise, they are always brutal and I always dread them.

What's amazing is how absolutely easy marathon pace feels on race day. Honestly, in 2 of my 3 marathons, the pace was never challenging; but other factors took their toll later in the race.

All of that being said, if I run a 4th marathon, I will incorporate more long runs with marathon paced finishes into my next cycle, just to see how my calves respond to that pace when pretty heavily fatigued.

I agree that M pace felt pretty easy during the race. Also, I think it is smart to try to be ready muscle-wise for the grind of the martahon. Getting your calves accustomed to it would seem to be a great idea. My quads and hams could use the same type of sharpening. Perhaps that is the best reason to do M pace work--to train those muscles, and not necessarily the CV system. Training one's nutritional and cooling systems for the 26.2 would also be a good thing.

she is running, but my predictions were much bolder!

Raevyn

Brenda

Ajee

Raevyn is a monster!! After winning the 800m, she anchored Oregon in the 4x4 w/ a sub 50 split!

Are you guys using M pace per the vdot or M-pace as in what your goal marathon pace is?

Going by the tables, my M-pace would be something like 6:20... I haven't even run a half marathon with that pace! I'd be happy with a 6:50 actual marathon pace.

IDK maybe it's just my FT muscles talking

Jeremy R wrote:

she is running, but my predictions were much bolder!

Raevyn

Brenda

Ajee

Raevyn is a monster!! After winning the 800m, she anchored Oregon in the 4x4 w/ a sub 50 split!

What did you pick for women's steeple?

I picked

1.)Emma, 2.) Fierichs, 3.) Quigley

Going back and forth whether I want to change it and put Garcia for a 2 or 3 spot.

I chose Clayton Murphy to get top 3 in both races.

I also put Molly Huddle to win both the 5 and 10k.

Strangely enough, I know full well who Coburn and Quigley are. Weird.

Jeremy R wrote:

Are you guys using M pace per the vdot or M-pace as in what your goal marathon pace is?

For me, M pace would be what I realistically think I could run at the present (with a proper taper, etc), which is usually a little slower than the vdot tables. By the end of the training program, hopefully it's the same as goal pace!

Allen1959 wrote:

Jeremy R wrote:

Are you guys using M pace per the vdot or M-pace as in what your goal marathon pace is?

For me, M pace would be what I realistically think I could run at the present (with a proper taper, etc), which is usually a little slower than the vdot tables. By the end of the training program, hopefully it's the same as goal pace!

Same for me.

My steeple guesses were the same as yours!

Clayton winning the 800, and Centro for the 1500 (Clay- second)

For the 10K I had Flanagan, Huddle, and Sisson

And Flanagan didn't make it! :( I'm a huge fan of hers

I think we know why Mr. Smoove! HAHA

You guessed it, I ran steeple for 2 years in college, so I really pay attention to that event!

(Plausible?)

Smoove wrote:

You guessed it, I ran steeple for 2 years in college, so I really pay attention to that event!

(Plausible?)

No, not pluasible. It seems I was thinking along the same lines as Jeremy.

You are a funny guy, Smoove.

Some good discussions this week! Been kind of out of the loop. Work work and getting some runs in. Feeling a lot stronger just out of shape.