Road Racing and Training Thread- Week Ending April 16, 2017

My legs are absolutely destroyed today. Calves are shredded, inner head of my quads are lit up, and both plantar fascia insertions are ringing like bells. Taking the rest of the week off.

a couple takes post Boston:

1.) I think I left just a little bit of my race out in training about 3 weeks back. In hindsight, I should have taken the week after that tuneup 8k race easier to recover, which is the same mistake I made last year after a 10 mile race but to a lesser degree this time around.

2.) I think the bigger issue was that I was not prepared for the hills. I had always been pretty good at hills but totally neglected anything close to the hilly terrain I had regularly trained on before moving from CA to MN. I think the hilly 25k I ran 16 days out ended up foreshadowing the race pretty accurately.

3.) My initial thoughts were to be done with the marathon for a while, but, man, I know I got fit relatively quickly, and the first 13-16 miles before hitting the hills were the most comfortable/relaxed/enjoyable I think I've ever been in a marathon. Aerobically I think I was doing fine, and mostly that the legs didn't have it. I might have a bit of time to decide whether to do the 10 mile or marathon at Twin Cities. I think I'm going to have the mindset that I'll run the marathon, but spend more time working on my deficiencies: mainly being better at handling/being stronger at longer durations at/near LT

outsiderunner wrote:

Wanted to test the waters a bit on Tuesday, and make sure that I still have some speed. Thus, I did a 4x1 track segment at about 10k pace.

T: 9 miles total...4x1 at about 10k pace on a warm morning (70-77 degrees), 2 mile warm-up, 4x1 of 6:24.4, 6:23.5, 6:22.3, 6:20.1 (active rests of 1:49, 1:56, 1:57, and 1:58)...two mile warm-down. All done in control and felt very good throughout.

Is 4x1mi at 6:22 a speed check for someone trying to go sub 3?

I'm on the outside sniffing at 3:00ish with little experience in such racing so I'm following a plan (Hansons)...it calls for 3-4 miles in intervals at ~6-6:15 or ~6 miles total in longer intervals (1 mi-3mi) at 6:30-6:40 pace. If I look at extrapolating this out to sub-3, it seems short for a tempo/threshold workout but slow for a VO2/Intervals workout...kind of in a middle dead zone? Or am I wrong about this?

Smoove- What you need is plenty of beer this week to salve them sore legs!

I am handing my big increase in mileage well. It is gonna be a big week when at 44 on Tuesday morning. My problem is I am tired of eating.

My Boston race report:

It was about 70 F the whole way. Bright sun. Very little shade. There was a good tailwind at times but being surrounded by people it didn't feel like it helped that much. I executed well my plan to run conservatively. Doused myself with water at aid station every mile and was a tangent hawk (gps says I ran 26.34). Hit halfway feeling great in 1:23 or just under (~6:20 pace). At that point the field was starting to come back. Lots of carnage. I was able to pick it up a notch from 13-16 highlighted by a 6:05 down the big hill into Newton. I ran well thru the Newton hills giving back very little time and picking a lot of people off. Miles 17-20 were 6:19, :24, :12, :17. At that point I was full of confidence and ready to fly, but Heartbreak took its toll (6:44 for mile 21). As I crested Heartbreak there was a small twinge in my right calf. Then the left. Fighting off the twinges for the next 4 miles slowed me down a little but not too much: 22-25 were 6:20, :31, :28, and :36. I was starting to breath a little harder but still under control. At the little hill by the Citgo sign just past mile 25 my right hamstring seized up out of nowhere. Stopped me cold. Took maybe 20 secs to get going again. Still managed a 7:12 for mile 26. I don't know how I made it up out of the tunnel without another hamstring cramp. I guess I just decide to leave it all on the course and to pick off as many people as I could. Footage from the TV broadcast captured by my family shows me coming down Boylston with my elbows flying everywhere. I was desperately trying to hold it together. Closed out the last .2 in 5:50 pace for a total time of 2:47:28 (6:23 avg). Beat my bib number by 73 places. Other than the cramps, I felt really good and within a couple hours was able to eat a cheeseburger and a cannoli from Mike's. Given the conditions I was very pleased with the result. My only other Boston was 2014, which was a 3:21 disaster of epic proportions under similar conditions. It took 3 years but yesterday I finally redeemed myself.

learningcurve wrote:

anyone have any experience with the Philadelphia Marathon in November? How the course is? slo-twitch, is that the one you ran a couple years ago when it was windy there? or maybe that was stonecutter

It was windy when I ran it in 2015 (Stonecutter ran too). The second half is very exposed along the river. That said, I don't think the wind affected my time by more than a minute. Relative to my fitness at the time, it was the best marathon that I've run. The course has been changed slightly, but still almost identical. It's a reasonably fast course in my opinion and you can generally count on the temperature not being too warm. If Chicago is warm this year, I will probably skip it and run Philadelphia again. There are some other races that might be a bit more ideal for running fast (CIM, Indianapolis Monumental, Mohawk-Hudson, Frankfurt etc), but Philadelphia is a good option.

(A lot of this is because it's fairly close to me too.)

I just saw that you mentioned Twin Cities too. That was my first marathon in 2014. If the logistics for that are easier than Philadelphia, I'd go for Twin Cities. Yes the gradual climb towards the end is not ideal, but I think the course is still equally fast asPhiladelphia. Plus if you don't have to travel I think that puts you at a huge advantage for a race. I would sign up for Twin Cities, then if the conditions on race day aren't ideal, just bail and go run Philadelphia in November. Registration doesn't close until like late October.

No, you are thinking in the right direction. Let me explain. As per my 10k PR, which is not that great, my 10k pace is 6:20. Thus, since I am thinking of running a 10k soon, I wanted to do a 10k speed check of at least four miles. And, if you factor in the weather (77 and sunny when done), a 6:22 average pretty much right on target.

I have had very little opportunity with the 10k. To my count, only three races, and in two of them I was coming off of an injury. My PR race was also tough in that it was on Aug. 1 in 82 degrees and high humidity. I have developed a certain hatred for the 10k.

Also, I have a hatred of V02max pace and tend to be a "dead zone" type of runner. I followed the cookie cutter plans for a couple of years, and did not like them, with their fixed paces and fixed days. I like to run by feel, both in terms of distance and pace. A 6:22 average, in full control, and on a warm day, felt great and I was happy with it. I am tired of doing what someone else, who does not know me, says I should do. I was miserbale doing that. I am much happier now.

Bottom line: if you are happy following the plan of a knowledge coach, then by all means do so.

Happy running...

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

4x1mi at 6:22 a speed check for someone trying to go sub 3?

I'm on the outside sniffing at 3:00ish with little experience in such racing so I'm following a plan (Hansons)...it calls for 3-4 miles in intervals at ~6-6:15 or ~6 miles total in longer intervals (1 mi-3mi) at 6:30-6:40 pace. If I look at extrapolating this out to sub-3, it seems short for a tempo/threshold workout but slow for a VO2/Intervals workout...kind of in a middle dead zone? Or am I wrong about this?

I am following an old Pfitzinger half marathon plan (from 1999 book) that lists a "vo2max workout" of 4 x 1-mile at 8K to 10K race pace. That also struck me as being in no man's land between vo2max and LT training. Comes three or four weeks out from the goal half marathon.

That would be similar to tinmans CV workouts seems like

One other point...this morning's run is a perfect example of why I hate being confined by a plan, or some type of fixed pace or fixed distance. I have been wanting to log mileage (building a base), and try to keep things someone brisk before the bombs of summer weather go off. Thus, my aim is to run by feel and get in as much as I could. Hence, yesterday I ran 12.25 miles at an overall 7:05, feeling good the whole way, but better after about mile 5 or 6. Ran in the rain the whole way. I tend to like rain. Other than the sloshy shoes, the run was a complete joy. Figured I would get 10, but got in 12+. No fixed distance or pace.

Today, conditions were pretty much opposite, very sunny and warmer. I went out knowing that my pace would be slower...and perhaps I might get less distance...but my aim was for at least 10. Felt so-so, or just not that into it in the first 7-8 miles, and then (almost on cue) something kicked in and I felt better. I took the first 8 or so as they came, and then more or less unconsciously picked up the pace, thinking I would probably get 11 miles. I ended up going 13.13 miles at 7:11 overall, feeling great in the last three (6:47, 6:50, 6:45).

Now, most plans would have had me do some type of workout today...or if not, probably do no more than 10 miles. If it were a workout, I would have been dreading it since last night, with the bright sunny weather on tap. I would have been nervous and out of rhythm. With my open approach, I have gotten in over 25 miles in two days, with no nerves and feeling very good...and blessed.

All the best...

Outside Runner,

Respectfully, can you keep this stuff on your other threads and save this one from you and "associates" (aka trolls). Or at least keep it a little more brief and do something besides talk about yourself and "AngryJohnny" who mysteriously finds all threads in which you post and replies within minutes.

Allen1959 wrote:

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

4x1mi at 6:22 a speed check for someone trying to go sub 3?

I'm on the outside sniffing at 3:00ish with little experience in such racing so I'm following a plan (Hansons)...it calls for 3-4 miles in intervals at ~6-6:15 or ~6 miles total in longer intervals (1 mi-3mi) at 6:30-6:40 pace. If I look at extrapolating this out to sub-3, it seems short for a tempo/threshold workout but slow for a VO2/Intervals workout...kind of in a middle dead zone? Or am I wrong about this?

I am following an old Pfitzinger half marathon plan (from 1999 book) that lists a "vo2max workout" of 4 x 1-mile at 8K to 10K race pace. That also struck me as being in no man's land between vo2max and LT training. Comes three or four weeks out from the goal half marathon.

Yeah...it's not that I was thinking 8k-10k pace is the deadzone necessarily. I've read from Luke Humphreys (the Hanson's book author) that they say 5k-10k pace for "speed" work for a marathon instead of true VO2 max because you get a lot of the benefit with less risk of injury and pushing true VO2 max isn't the most critical part of marathon training specifics. I was just thinking 6:22 isn't really 5k-10k pace for a sub 3 marathoner...it should be more like 6-6:10 from what I've seen.

Just trying to make sure I'm learning as much as I can. Thanks.

Respectfully, I was simply trying to answer someone's question. Sorry if I bother you. You seem to be bothered only by me.

outsiderunner wrote:

Respectfully, I was simply trying to answer someone's question. Sorry if I bother you. You seem to be bothered only by me.

Pretty much. Your lame past threads definitely factor in. Reread my previous post.

Other people write at length in this thread, and yet you offer no snide remarks and "get off this thread" attitude to them. Now that is pretty lame.

I've never heard of anyone embracing being a dead zone runner. If you enjoy running just for the joy of the run that's great...but does it really belong in a "Road racing and training thread"?

Your success metrics seem to be based more on how you feel during your runs rather than on getting faster in races?

Hey if y'all wanna ruin a thread that has been mostly all mellow for months than do it if you want. But it would be best if you exchanged emails if you wanna be nasty .. otherwise if you don't like it ignore it. I'm sure there are a lot of people who ignore sh*t I say on the regular

I had been ignoring Inside Jogger, but when he became persistent and snide in his remarks, I felt I should say something, as he has not applied his "get off this thread" rule to anyone else who is doing the same thing I am. He has obviously singled me out, and I did not like that. I am all for nice, calm threads, but he has obviously disturbed the peace.