The emperor has no clothes: Jemima Sumgong has tested positive for EPO!!!

There were NO Italians born and living in altitude. However, when we speak about the top Italian of the period 1985-1995, and of Baldini (who won HM WCh in 1996 and Olympics in 2004), we speak about athletes who used several period of altitude training every year (for example, 5 times 3 weeks followed by 3 weeks at sea level with some competition).

I was not the one following Baldini or Bordin in direct way. Their coach was Luciano Gigliotti, I think the only coach who had two different athletes winning Gold in different Olympic Games (1988 and 2004). We used worked together, and I know very well all the blood data of the two athletes. I already pointed out that Bordin won Olympics in Seoul with 12.9 Hb and 39.7 Hct, while for Baldini the values were around 15 and 44.

This fact clearly demonstrates that high Hct is not connected with the level of performance, and that every "average" is a bullshit. For example, while Bordin was able to win with Hct under 40, Genny Di Napoli (still National Record Holder of 1500m with 3'32"78) was normally at level of 18.5/19, and 51/53, and when had Hb at 17.5 was in anaemia...

What I saw with Chinese too is that athletes improving dramatically after a long period in altitudes (about 2 months) in Duoba (2400m), competed with blood values LOWER than before going altitude, while other athletes that increased gthe level of Hb and Hct at the end were not able to run at their previous level.

In Italy we had, during the period 1978-1985, some experience with the auto-transfusions, following what Finnish athletes did at the beginning of the seventieth. However, not all the best Italian accepted to follow the protocol of Conconi. During that period, athletes winning everything, such as Alberto Cova (ECh 1982, WCh 1983, OG 1984, World Cup 1985) NEVER went to altitude, preferring a training in Finland at sea level. During those periods, there were the take-off of blood, which had to be injected again in the circulatory system about two weeks before the race.

We must think that, at that time, that practice was legal, and only at the end of 1985 was outlaw, so we can't consider the athletes as "doped".

One of the athletes used the system was Salvatore Antibo. When in 1985 he stopped this practice, he started to go altitude (South Africa in winter, Sestriere during summer), and his performances improved dramatically.

Athletes such as Stefano Mei and Francesco Panetta always refused the auto-transfusion, and were able to win WCh (Panetta) and European Championships (Mei). EVERYTHING HAPPENED BEFORE THE EPO ERA.

If I had some doubt about the fact that there is not really connection between high Hct and performance, this doubt disappeared when I could see the Adams data of Arne Gabius : in 16 blood tests (during 4 years), he never had any fluctuation (Hct between 41.6 and 42.8), ALSO IF THE LEVEL OF SHAPE WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Arne had the same values when was out of shape (with very little training coming from a period of two months without training for injury) and when was able running 13'13" in 5000m or the German record in Marathon (2:08:33). This means that the influence of Hct on the performance doesn't exist.

If nobody can deny that with high Hct there is the possibility to increase the transportation of Oxygen, we need to accept the fact that, at the same time, increasing the Hct we decrease some other physiological parameter, and at the end the final effect on the performance not always is positive.

We can say that we have RESPONDERS to high Hct, but also NOT RESPONDERS, who, in spite of this, can improve their performances.

Why this can happen ? This is exactly what physiologists don't know, and don't know because they refuse to study the effects of TRAINING of high level, in altitude, but also at sea level (Arne Gabius normally remained in Kenya for periods longer than two months during winter, the same in summer in Saint Moritz).

Why I don't believe in the effects of EPO with the best runners living and training in altitude ? Because I had, and have, proves of unbelievable increases of performances in very short time for athletes completely clean (don't continue to ask me how I can be sure they didn't dope : we were together in the same apartment in Saint Moritz, for long periods, and I know everything everybody did, because it was a situation without secrets).

Nicholas Kemboi moved from 28'19" to 26'30" in two months of training, every day with me, in altitude. Shaheen was with me practically every day of his athletic career, bettering the WR and winning 28 following races of steeple in 5 years. Moses Mosop was with me in Kenya or Saint Moritz always, from when he won bronze in WCh 2005, till when won Chicago Marathon in 2011, running 2:03:06 in his first marathon in Boston, and after 40 days destroying the WR of 25000 and 30000m on track.

Can I really believe that, giving EPO, these athletes could run faster ?

Yes, I don't have any proof that EPO doesn't work also with these athletes. But nobody can have the proof that EPO could work.

Many speak about Rita Jeptoo as example. Rita started with me very young, in 1998 (she was only 17), and continued with me till the end of 2006, when got married, left the camp in Iten and went home in Mosoriot.

In 2006, during the preparation for Boston, she was able to run, in one day, a "Special Block" with, in the morning, 10 km in 35'50" + HM in 1:11:50, and in the afternoon, 10 km in 34'56" + 6 times 2000m on track with 2' recovery, between 6'18" and 6'12", for a total of about 54 km. I NEVER SAW SOME ATHLETE TRAINING SO HARD. She had problem of Visa before going Boston, and her race was cancelled till the day before, when suddenly her Passport with the Visa arrived in the Milan Airport. I was coming from Antalya in Turkey, where I was lecturer for the European coaches during the European Challenge of 10000m, and I received the communication Rita had the Visa from the office of the manager, who asked me to wait in the Airport somebody bringing Rita's passport, while Rita tried to arrive on time for boarding. She arrived Boston 7 hours before the race, didn't go to sleep, started the race, attacked after 30 km, WON THE RACE WITH 2:23:36 AND RAN THE FASTEST LAST 12 KM OF THE MARATHON INCLUDING ALL THE MEN (if you don't believe, go to control the splits).

For me, she could already run in 2:20 in 2006. Why I have to give merit to EPO for winning Chicago and Boston in 2013 and 2014 ?

Understand my position in a correct way : I AM THE FIRST ASKING FOR BANNING THE CHEATERS FOR 4 YEARS, I ALSO ASK THAT ALL THE RESULTS THEY HAD BEFORE THE FINDED DOPING CAN BE CANCELLED, so I'm not somebody defending cheaters. But they need to be banned BECAUSE AGAINST THE ETHICS AND THE SPIRIT OF SPORT, not because had advantage with EPO.

Believe me, when athletes taking EPO have big jumps in their performances, there is not only EPO. Look at steroids, that have effect particularly with women. Look at GH. But, with tough and smart training in altitude, forget that EPO can produce amazing effects.

... getting dropped with 1 - 2 laps to go.

Did someone call her "a late developer"?

Fact:

- no international title before age 26

Conclusion: clearly not the talent of the century - look for other reasons for her world record remaining out of reach for the best of the best talents and the most blatant dopers since 1.5 decades.

... getting dropped with 1 - 2 laps to go.

Did someone call her "a late developer"?

Fact:

- no international ADULT title before age 26 [sorry for the omission]

Conclusion: clearly not the talent of the century - look for other reasons for her world record remaining out of reach for the best of the best talents and the most blatant dopers since 1.5 decades.

You have issues, Barackus. You seem obsessed with the ridiculous notion that that Nordic countries have a higher sense of morals that the third world and even Southern Europeans. Yet the one major sport seen to be dirtier than athletics dopingwise is the all-white sport of cycling. Where are the African or third world riders driving up those stats? What kind of poverty drove Lance Armstrong to levels of sociopathy unprecedented in sport?

Judging by your posts, I think we can safely infer you're Danish (or Scandinavian, at least). Since you're so keen on spreading negative stereotypes about other countries (including your, frankly, bewildering comment about Spain and Italy) how would you feel if we went on about Nordic countries and their inhabitants being cold, soulless, uninteresting, dull, regimented, lacking in individuality or creativity? That you like quoting an index that claims you're the happiest countries on earth, using ridiculous indicators like fast internet, when in reality, people know that real happiness is a result of intangibles you can't quantity like that? Do you honestly believe that Scandinavians, typically cold, unsmiling and unfriendly to strangers, laden with notoriously high suicide rates and alcoholism, having to eat that bland cuisine and endure that weather, are happier than some poor fisherman on a Caribbean or Brazilian beach whose only concern is the price of his catch that day? Please.

You have issues, Barackus. You seem obsessed with the ridiculous notion that that Nordic countries have a higher sense of morals that the third world and even Southern Europeans. Yet the one major sport seen to be dirtier than athletics dopingwise is the all-white sport of cycling. Where are the African or third world riders driving up those stats? What kind of poverty drove Lance Armstrong to levels of sociopathy unprecedented in sport?

Judging by your posts, I think we can safely infer you're Danish (or Scandinavian, at least). Since you're so keen on spreading negative stereotypes about other countries (including your, frankly, bewildering comment about Spain and Italy) how would you feel if we went on about Nordic countries and their inhabitants being cold, soulless, uninteresting, dull, regimented, lacking in individuality or creativity? That you like quoting an index that claims you're the happiest countries on earth, using ridiculous indicators like fast internet, when in reality, people know that real happiness is a result of intangibles you can't quantity like that? Do you honestly believe that Scandinavians, typically cold, unsmiling and unfriendly to strangers, laden with notoriously high suicide rates and alcoholism, having to eat that bland cuisine and endure that weather, are happier than some poor fisherman on a Caribbean or Brazilian beach whose only concern is the price of his catch that day? Please.

__________________________________________________________

Except, cycling was always a drug sport. The TDF was a drug fueled endurance race around France. You can't compare and always drugged sport to one that has deteriorated.

Stop with the cycling white guy stuff. Its a pharmaceutical sport. Its way harder than track. No sport competes 22 days in a row, in everything like TT 's to sprints to climbs. There are no off days, and the bodies are destroyed. Its why the drugs started. And no one cared.

And you are correct. Scandinavians are drunks.

And have a look at the drug taking in winter sports. Its just as 'bad"

Britain has a higher income than Spain, and way higher wealth per person.

Britain has a higher income than Italy (not by much) and about the same ever wealth per person. If Italy has a higher reading right now it is largely because the sterling has dropped temporarily since the Brexit vote.

Per person govt debt is worse in Italy and Spain.

Agree with you on Canova. I am trying to imagine how the Brojos would react if Salazar wrote stuff like this on the board.Don't get into it with rekrunner. He has his own form of trolling he has just convinced himself that he is an insightful contrarian. One day he will take the red pill and realize he is just a troll like the others.He makes assertions, then casually shifts the burden of proof to you but always with nice prose. Usually, it's a bit clever and takes a decent counter argument to show what he did (like you did below) but he totally blew it on the Aden story.

Evertsen var jo tvilsam før han blei trenar for S, S og G. Kvifor blei ikkje

Bakken straffa etter jerninjeksjonane. Såvidt eg kan sjå var dette svært

tvilsamt av NFIF, men kanskje ikkje alt kom fram i pressa.

Renato Canova wrote:

Many speak about Rita Jeptoo as example. Rita started with me very young, in 1998 (she was only 17), and continued with me till the end of 2006, when got married, left the camp in Iten and went home in Mosoriot.

......

For me, she could already run in 2:20 in 2006. Why I have to give merit to EPO for winning Chicago and Boston in 2013 and 2014 ?

The simpler and more likely explanation is that she was doing EPO pre-2006. Go ahead and prove she wasn't. We'll wait. And remember that your statements can be used in a court of law when you're busted as well.

Renato Canova wrote:

Athletes such as Stefano Mei and Francesco Panetta always refused the auto-transfusion, and were able to win WCh (Panetta) and European Championships (Mei). EVERYTHING HAPPENED BEFORE THE EPO ERA.

LRC: Looking at something that we at LetsRun.com like to talk about, drugs in the sport, how big of a concern was that for you? Is it something you thought about a lot?

Twill: ... (That mentality was the only option). Because one year (1993) I ran world champs and I believe Francesco Panetta tested positive in front of me at the world champs - I think. If you look back at the IAAF records, it says there was a positive but that never became public but I saw the results and it said that beside his name.

This is another example of a conspiracy theory without any foundation, coming from not informed persons. What Todd Williams said is very far from the truth. In WCh 1993, if it's true that one athlete in front of him was doped, the only possibility was about Stephan Franke, who also in Germany was associated with EPO several times. Franke was 4th in Stuttgart, and practically there was a big war between the group around Dieter Baumann and the group around Franke.

About Panetta, he was an athlete "naïve", with a wild behavior, similar with the great New Zealanders of the past, who absolutely believed in his strength only (such as Gelindo Bordin). In 1993, he was completely out of shape in WCh, running in 28'27" (very far from his PB), while few days before he was able to improve his PB of 5000m with 13'06". In 1993, he had his first experience in altitude, staying Sankt Moritz for long time, and at the end he and his coach (at that time Giorgio Gandini, Panetta left Giorgio Rondelli in 1990) did some mistake in training and in the strategy altitude-sea level.

Of course, you can believe every thing, but this is another case where I KNOW the truth, because at that time I was the Italian responsible for middle and long distances together with Luciano Gigliotti.

And it's funny that in Letsrun, when we speak about some athlete suspected by the readers to use PEDs, and instead I know is clean, somebody asks "you have to prove he's clean", instead "suspicious people have to prove he's doped". Here there is a new interpretation of the law : if you run fast, there are "rumors" you use doping, therefore you have to prove you didn't use. Good example of logic at the contrary.

No worries Renato.

It would of been very difficult for Panetta to test positive for EPO in 1993, since the first test to detect EPO was not until the year 2000, and there was no test for the detection of autologous blood transfusions.

The only possible positive in 1993 would be for anabolic steroids, and Francesco would know when to stop taking anabolic steroids before a competition to avoid a positive test at the World Championships.

There is another important fact.

Francesco was a "wild type" mentality" like Bordin. He would not even take an aspirin.

Gelindo also would not even take an aspirin.

seen paula too often wrote:

... getting dropped with 1 - 2 laps to go.

Did someone call her "a late developer"?

Fact:

- no international ADULT title before age 26 [sorry for the omission]

Conclusion: clearly not the talent of the century - look for other reasons for her world record remaining out of reach for the best of the best talents and the most blatant dopers since 1.5 decades.

The point is that Paula and Mo are very different cases and you lumped them together - one could argue they are almost opposites. Paula was a world beater as a junior over the country beating some great track runners. As an early senior she struggled on the track, bit like McColgan did before her especially against Ethiopians with big kicks. The marathon was a natural move for her with her cross strength and where her lack of kick wouldn't hinder her.

She first starts to win world senior titles in her mid 20s which is a pretty average age for distance runners to peak. I wouldn't call 26 'late'.

Renato Canova wrote:

And it's funny that in Letsrun, when we speak about some athlete suspected by the readers to use PEDs, and instead I know is clean, somebody asks "you have to prove he's clean", instead "suspicious people have to prove he's doped". Here there is a new interpretation of the law : if you run fast, there are "rumors" you use doping, therefore you have to prove you didn't use. Good example of logic at the contrary.

Questo! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Bravo, Signore! 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Britain has a higher income than Spain, and way higher wealth per person.

Britain has a higher income than Italy (not by much) and about the same ever wealth per person. If Italy has a higher reading right now it is largely because the sterling has dropped temporarily since the Brexit vote.

Per person govt debt is worse in Italy and Spain.

And yet crime - especially violent criime-is much worse in Britain than in Spain or Italy if the reported stats are accurate.

I liked Panetta and wished he could have won an Olympic medal at the time but I don't know who to believe any more (that is not the same as believing anything). Todd Williams was a very well respected athlete in the US and I don't know why he would say something like that.

Saw Paula Once wrote:

The point is that Paula and Mo are very different cases and you lumped them together - one could argue they are almost opposites. Paula was a world beater as a junior over the country beating some great track runners. As an early senior she struggled on the track, bit like McColgan did before her especially against Ethiopians with big kicks. The marathon was a natural move for her with her cross strength and where her lack of kick wouldn't hinder her.

She first starts to win world senior titles in her mid 20s which is a pretty average age for distance runners to peak. I wouldn't call 26 'late'.

You can't just comare the 2 in terms of titles. Women's competitions have much worse depth than the mens so winning something like a world junior title as a woman is just nowhere near as competitive as winning as man.

Where they are both very similar is that Paula like Mo had a big upswing in performance around 2001/2002 approaching the age of 30. She started dominating races around that time. It seemed that only injuries curtialed this around 2005.

Do you think some athlete can REALLY know for sure if somebody else was positive and his test was covered ? There are always suspicions in the circuit (for example, about Boulami and Ramzi years before they were officially caught), and frequently where there is smog there is fire. But Panetta was one of the most respected athletes for about 10 years, and nobody had any suspicion about him, except Todd (it's the first time I had the opportunity to read his interview of 2003). I don't say Todd is a liar, simply he had suspicions on the wrong person.

How many unannounced OOC blood tests have Bekele and Kipchoge been subjected to in the past 2 years.

I'll wager the number is zero unless anyone has evidence to the contrary.

The Kenyan lady who recently broke a number of world records on the roads did so without ever having been tested OOC.Her coach admitted to this fact.