They should get a year minimum in prison for banditting a race plus a felony theft charge. #endbandits
They should get a year minimum in prison for banditting a race plus a felony theft charge. #endbandits
trump wins you lose wrote:
They should get a year minimum in prison for banditting a race plus a felony theft charge. #endbandits
Bit harsh, but I get your drift.
The whole public street argument is crap. Especially for the races that pay money to creat the ability for people to have blocked streets to participate in an event they pay to participate in. You cannot do what you are doing any other time. I'd love to see you "it public street I can run here if I want to" types do that when the event is not going on. You really think you can go run down the middle of a city street when ever you feel like it? Love to see that...natural selection.
Organizers of most of the races have to pay large fees to the municipalities to have events on public roads. Of course the main reasons is to have a safe, traffic free course but also in this day and age security is an issue.
A permit for a road race is no different then a parade permit. For those that think it's ok to jump in and run because it's normally a public and open road - try it during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade or the St. Patrick's Day Parade - good luck with that!
80s kid wrote:
Have any of you been to Boston Marathon? Half of the runners are bandits and no one cares.
Actually banditing Boston is almost more socially acceptable than doing it as a charity runner 😆
People bandit in a Race???? I'm shocked, shocked I say. Never happened before . This is just click bait for marathon.investigation.com
Llbeab wrote:
Derek- Why do you cross post EVERY single blog post over here?
I only notice these threads when I see 1 or 2 people came from letsrun. Literally only a tiny fraction of my visitors come from these forums. If I post an article here, I do so as 'doubler'..and that is very rare.
I share my articles as myself on running groups in FB all the time, why would I create an alias just to post here - for a fraction of the traffic that comes from posting in my FB group or in other running groups on Facebook?
doubler wrote:
Llbeab wrote:Derek- Why do you cross post EVERY single blog post over here?
I only notice these threads when I see 1 or 2 people came from letsrun. Literally only a tiny fraction of my visitors come from these forums. If I post an article here, I do so as 'doubler'..and that is very rare.
I share my articles as myself on running groups in FB all the time, why would I create an alias just to post here - for a fraction of the traffic that comes from posting in my FB group or in other running groups on Facebook?
Just stop it.
D.Katz wrote:
Organizers of most of the races have to pay large fees to the municipalities to have events on public roads. Of course the main reasons is to have a safe, traffic free course but also in this day and age security is an issue.
A permit for a road race is no different then a parade permit. For those that think it's ok to jump in and run because it's normally a public and open road - try it during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade or the St. Patrick's Day Parade - good luck with that!
I have no idea what happens in NY parades.
In smaller towns, people walk across the parade route all the time.
I'd be interested in seeing whether particular permits allow for "exclusive use" as I think that is important to determining if there is any possible case.
messi wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:If the action succeeds, I think damages for the race entry fee is pretty easy.
What about fraud and forgery. Why not file a criminal complaint, particularly if city services were paid for by race organizers?
If you can file a civil action the advantage is that you don't have to convince the state to take action. Whatever the merits of a criminal action, the fact is that it is going to be difficult to get a prosecutor to take action and use time and money to pursue such an action. Unless, perhaps, you had a race organizer who had significant political pull in the city.
LondonC wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:What are the elements?
Why do the L1s stick out like a sore thumb? Lol
Not a lawyer. Just have a long-standing theoretical interest in the law.
Not honestly all that outraged about banditing, it is just an interesting theoretical case.
Snsnssndnj wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:If the action succeeds, I think damages for the race entry fee is pretty easy.
Maybe, maybe not. The defendants simply have to argue they would not have run the race if they had to pay, so no lss there. Also, since they did not prevent anyone else from registering, no list entry fees there. If they took no items if food or swag, the RD is not out of pocket any amount due to their actions.
No, not at all. This is a very poor argument. If the case is made that the elements are there the theft, the bandits can't then argue they wouldn't have done it if they had to have paid. You can't argue that in a shoplifting case, or a case where you have not paid for a cab or a meal. You actually took the service, so now you owe for it (and I do not know that there aren't damages over and above, just the entry fee seems like a slam dunk).
All business wrote:
The whole public street argument is crap. Especially for the races that pay money to creat the ability for people to have blocked streets to participate in an event they pay to participate in. You cannot do what you are doing any other time. I'd love to see you "it public street I can run here if I want to" types do that when the event is not going on. You really think you can go run down the middle of a city street when ever you feel like it? Love to see that...natural selection.
The "down the middle of the street" thing is a non-starter. Generally it is legally permissible to run along public roadways. You do so at your own risk. Whether the removal of that risk is a "service" that can be stolen is interesting, but I don't think it is clear-cut.
Really? They would not have run the race if they had to pay? They DID run the race, for which they had to pay. The race lost the entry fees from the bandits.
I don't know what attorney would take this case, though. If the actual damages are just the lost entry fees for the two bandits, no lawyer worth his or her salt is going to bother. Even if punitive damages are available as a remedy, it is unlikely they will be big. If they are big, it's even more unlikely the bandits could pay those damages.
If someone really wants to make this an example, it would need to be prosecuted as a criminal matter.
The public does not necessarily have the right to run on the street in this instance. The city has the power to close public access to roads.
It is highly likely that the permit for the race included the closure of the streets (or to use your word, delegated them to the marathon). The event company paid for this permit. The event company is the proper party.
BeAMan wrote:
The public does not necessarily have the right to run on the street in this instance. The city has the power to close public access to roads.
It is highly likely that the permit for the race included the closure of the streets (or to use your word, delegated them to the marathon). The event company paid for this permit. The event company is the proper party.
This is the reason it would be important to see the actual wording on the permit.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Well, if you are stealing cable, it is clear that you are getting something (the programming ) that you are not entitled to.
With race banditing, assuming it is on a public road, it is not clear to me that the person is doing anything other than running on a public street, which generally people have a right to do.
What service are they receiving from the race director? It is not clear to me that a road closure counts as a service.
Public streets (and other public amenities) are not always open to the public. Take a parade route held on a public street. While that parade is happening, the public does not have the right of their usual use of that street. You can't drive your car down Main St during the parade, although the other 364 days of the year people generally have the right to drive on that street.
Use of public parks is also restricted at times. There's a public park next to where I work. Sometimes business groups, or concerts, or festivals, or weddings, rent parts of the park and put up tents and fences. If I try to get inside those areas without a ticket or proper credentials I run the risk of being cited for trespassing.
BeAMan wrote:
Really? They would not have run the race if they had to pay? They DID run the race, for which they had to pay. The race lost the entry fees from the bandits.
I don't know what attorney would take this case, though. If the actual damages are just the lost entry fees for the two bandits, no lawyer worth his or her salt is going to bother. Even if punitive damages are available as a remedy, it is unlikely they will be big. If they are big, it's even more unlikely the bandits could pay those damages.
If someone really wants to make this an example, it would need to be prosecuted as a criminal matter.
So, in this instance, I think the question is what is the best way to 1. punish the bandits, and 2. deter future actions of this type.
It would be much cleaner if you could convince the state to prosecute. That might be possible, and it is clean, I am just not convinced from my various interactions over the years of the ability of race organizers to convince prosecutors to take action on their behalf. A standing, physical business has a much easier time of this. Unless, as I previously indicated, the race organizer has political sway.
I don't know if an attorney would be necessary. It might be that could pursue in a small claims court. For enough money you could surely get an attorney to take it. Some businesses, such as Wal-Mart, regularly employ attorneys to pursue claims which don't make much financial sense because they see the precedent value as being important (they also aggregate all those cases, so the attorney shows up in court once and pursues 20 cases or so...
d2xccoach wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:Well, if you are stealing cable, it is clear that you are getting something (the programming ) that you are not entitled to.
With race banditing, assuming it is on a public road, it is not clear to me that the person is doing anything other than running on a public street, which generally people have a right to do.
What service are they receiving from the race director? It is not clear to me that a road closure counts as a service.
Public streets (and other public amenities) are not always open to the public. Take a parade route held on a public street. While that parade is happening, the public does not have the right of their usual use of that street. You can't drive your car down Main St during the parade, although the other 364 days of the year people generally have the right to drive on that street.
Use of public parks is also restricted at times. There's a public park next to where I work. Sometimes business groups, or concerts, or festivals, or weddings, rent parts of the park and put up tents and fences. If I try to get inside those areas without a ticket or proper credentials I run the risk of being cited for trespassing.
Right, which is why the wording on the restrictions on the permit is a very, very key part of the issue.
If it says "closed to traffic" or "closed to vehicular traffic" then I think it is likely a non-starter. If it has language about restricting pedestrian use or maybe even exclusive use, then I think it is a possibility.
You are involved in race organizing...what is the exact wording on the permits you receive? Does it differ by locality?
Mr. Obvious wrote:
LondonC wrote:Why do the L1s stick out like a sore thumb? Lol
Not a lawyer. Just have a long-standing theoretical interest in the law.
Not honestly all that outraged about banditing, it is just an interesting theoretical case.
Why don't you leave the lawyerin' up to the people who actually know what they are talking about then. Your ignorance is doing you no favors.