Harvard woes

Beardingus wrote:

There seems to now be two threads about this article so I'll post my thoughts in both.

Why even post at all if you have nothing to contribute except gaslighting?

Incredible that you would treat this so lightly and suggest that these are some pampered brats. I know first hand that the head coach as well as Patrick have played head games with their athletes. Patrick has even boasted about loving to do this. They are not eager for athletes to see doctors. Once they do, the head coach has demanded that results are sent to him. Out of the goodness of his heart? No. He manipulates the runners. He has even told an athlete to see a psychiatrist, claiming that her injuries were all made up. This athlete suffered to such an extent that her injuries nearly killed her. This is not about undisciplined, unmotivated girls. This is about a head coach and his cronie, forcing runners to overtrain, ignoring their subsequent serious injuries, and telling them that they need to leave the team if they don't do as they are told. This goes against what we teach young woman - to stand up for themselves and to be their own advocate. I think the only way Harvard has a chance to attract great runners is to get rid of Jason and Patrick. These two are only in it for their own glory and become angry when a runner isn't capable of performing.

Why taken with a grain of salt? Because she is young? Yes. Because she's a pole vaulter? Yes. Because she's a woman? Absolutely not. Maybe you missed the very next sentence where I stated Kuntz is a great athlete and she has been there on the inside for several years, which clearly does lend her more credit.

You seem to think I'm just like PWD, and I can assure you I'm not. By taken with a grain of salt all I'm saying is you have to be at least slightly skeptical that she doesn't see the bigger picture of what it takes to run a competitive team AND what it takes to be an elite distance runner, and having coached with the previous distance coach maybe there is also some ties that are making this even more emotionally charged.

The fact of the matter is distance running is a power:weight ratio sport that has always been dominated by very lean individuals. For every 1 exception there are 100 that fit in with the norm, unfortunately. If you read the book "The Silence of Great Distance" it's clear that women's running has been dealing with disordered eating since day 1 of XC being an NCAA sport for women.

It's a big problem all over the NCAA. There are not a lot of top programs where it's not an issue. The hope is obviously that the coach is the most balanced person in the program and makes sure that health is not sacrificed for performance. The issue is that the coach only gets to coach if they are getting results and unfortunately results tend to come a lot easier if the girls are leaner rather than not. The fact is top programs can have girls that run for 1-2 years and then get injured and are done forever, yet the programs are just fine because there are constantly girls wanting to be on the team. How many Harvard recruits even know of these issues? How many girls that commit to Washington realize it's rare for someone to run there more than 2 years?

So when people on this thread are saying, "Hey, this is happening all over the country" they aren't trying to say it's not a problem Harvard should deal with, they are saying it's a problem that's been going on since 1981 in NCAA women's xc. It's been 35+ years now and the issue is bigger than PWD.

Part of the problem specifically with the case at Harvard is there aren't a lot of real specifics I'm hearing. Was PWD telling girls specific weights to hit? Specific BMIs to be at? Specific diets? Most of what's being said sounds emotionally charged, which is totally understandable, but it doesn't help get to the root of the problem. For instance, saying everyone who has transferred has improved tremendously, without injuries, and they are encouraged to eat just sounds ridiculous. Of course not everyone is going to improve "tremendously", of course not everyone will never experience an injury again, and of course not every coach is going to encourage their athletes to eat in the same manner. So that sort of thing makes it sound like what you're saying needs to be...taken with a grain of salt because that's tough to believe.

For the record, I coach a girl that is very likely to go to an Ivy and there is no chance she'll be running for PWD, that is for sure.

As far as Kuntz being brave for writing such an article. Maybe. Maybe not. By now she surely can see that PWD is not going to last and she'll look like the hero here. Had she been the first one to speak up that might be different. I'm not saying it's wrong that she has, but I don't think it takes a ton of courage at this point to kick a man that's already on the ground.

Assuming PWD is on his way out, any ideas who a good candidate is for Harvard?

Nothing will change, even if Patrick leaves, unless Jason leaves with him. Jason manipulates the coaches just as much as he manipulates the team.

Assuming PWD is on his way out, any ideas who a good candidate is for Harvard?

Tim Brock (Providence), Mark Rinker (Northeastern), Elliott Lehane (Boston), Jennifer Fazioli (TCU), Ryan Waite (Delaware), Angela Reckart (Penn State), Pat McGregor (Samford)

These are some of the young coaches I've been impressed with this year. Would love to see any of them have an opportunity to lead a team with good potential.

The following response was posted in the Crimson comment section tonight. The author was a member of the Harvard T&F team. What stupid arguments can you generate this time?

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As a recent Harvard graduate (Class of 2015) and former athlete on the female track and cross-country teams, I very strongly identify with this article. Kudos to you, Lauren Kuntz, for bravely publishing this and choosing not to hide behind the cloak of anonymity. I ran for a few years under Jason Saretsky (he oversaw the female distance program at this time point, circa 2011-2013) and chose to quit the team during the spring of my sophomore year. I was constantly injured, running 2x the mileage I ran during high school and felt like an inconsequential statistic. Jason rarely displayed empathy and compassion to his female athletes who were not in the top 3 of their distance group and berated my best friend (who was the female track team captain at the time) for her serious injuries and difficult choice to not compete during her senior spring. This is a man who spoke to other members of the womens team and urged them to individually talk to my best friend and "encourage" her to participate at the outdoor Ivy League Championships i.e. guilt trip her into competing. Jason was relentless with this campaign and it infuriates me to this day that he remains employed at my alma mater.

If anyone within the Athletic Department is reading this, I highly encourage you to schedule meetings and circulate a poll within the womens track and cross country teams to garner objective, honest feedback free from the fear-based results that would occur if Jason were to ask for feedback.

Please remember that this man is in a position of power over 18-22 year old women; these are their formative years and being coached by someone like Jason Saretsky is a surefire way to wreck their physical and psychological health.

And as my username suggests, my name is Lucy McCullough. I invite anyone reading this who is skeptical of my background to google search me and verify that I did attend Harvard, I did run on the cross country and track teams, and I do have personal experience with Jason Saretsky and the rest of the administration.

Who would want to follow these clowns and spend 2-3 years just cleaning up the mess they have created??

Reading through the comments on that article is just an extension of this thread. Has there been a petition of some sort organized by the alumni or the current student athletes to bring to the administration?

The idea of a coach pushing his athletes to take a program from 'also ran' to perennial conference champs and national contender is pretty common.

My son runs for a D1 program and the situation seems very similar to Harvard (except for the public complaints). A lot of injuries. Kids dropping out of the program. Some women that are too thin. Some that are too heavy feeling pressure. Complaints about being asked to run while injured. Control over University-provided medical procedures (e.g., MRIs). Etc.

The reality is that, if you want to excel in distance running, you have to live on the edge of injury. And, you do have to worry about your nutrition and weight. If you're a coach, you push your athletes to perform, especially during championship season, because that's how you are judged (and often compensated).

So, I'm not defending what PWD did (especially the stuff re: touching / relationships, which is indefensible) but know that what he's done is very, very common in D1 distance running.

If you are a HS athlete, you should do you due diligence before joining a program. If you want to excel at the D1 level, going to a Harvard could be a good choice. If you want to focus on your studies and have running be just one aspect of what you do, then go D3 or pick a program that fits your profile.

You are wrong, you don't know the inside story. This is a very unhealthy situation. The injuries are out of control, the mental and physical health of the student athletes is at risk. There are students withdrawing from school to save eligibility because they are too injured to run, this type of thing shouldn't be happening at Harvard. They are being manipulated and led down a path to destruction. There are some athletes who are a mess and will never be the same again from a running standpoint, won't mention names because it is sad.

I have been associated with several Div. 1 programs, this is not the way it is done, it is not sustainable.

You ask, in your continuing quest to discredit these young women, if a doctor has confirmed their claims. I understand that Dr Kathryn Ackerman, a specialist in female athlete health at Boston Children's Hospital, is aware of the team situation and asked the coaches if she could address the team. They said - surprise! - no.

Why does Harvard continue to cover up this mess? Seems to me the Administration is complicit now that they ordered an investigation that apparently ignored the overwhelming evidence of physical and psychological harm to so many students.

Marcus Welby wrote:

You ask, in your continuing quest to discredit these young women, if a doctor has confirmed their claims. I understand that Dr Kathryn Ackerman, a specialist in female athlete health at Boston Children's Hospital, is aware of the team situation and asked the coaches if she could address the team. They said - surprise! - no.

Why does Harvard continue to cover up this mess? Seems to me the Administration is complicit now that they ordered an investigation that apparently ignored the overwhelming evidence of physical and psychological harm to so many students.

The administration probably won't do anything unless the money stops coming in from the alumni, or if the alumni raises their voices enough to be heard.

They are circling the wagons and excluding anyone who does not drink the coolaide. It is a cover up and it is pathetic, poor coaching coupled with a lack of integrity.

Next thing you know is that the athletes will be sleeping in the coaches office?

Kind of disingenuous to ask if PWD laid out specific metrics on weight. Why is that a requirement for judging his behavior? You sound like Senators asking Jim Comey if Trump specifically told him to drop his investigation. He didn't need to - he had all the power and Comey got the message loud and clear. Same with PWD and his athletes.

The reluctance to believe so many young women is really shocking. We haven't come very far in treatment of women, have we?

And who says the hyphenated one is on his way out? Last I heard Harvard was refusing to make the results of their investigation public and saying he would stay. Watch out Harvard - it's always the cover-up!

While most of what you say may be true as far as training and pushing, the Harvard coaches - Jason, Patrick & Kebba have engaged in a much more sinister, manipulative fashion. They have forced teammates to turn on each other. They have diminished team members in front of the other athletes. They have even bad mouthed their own athletes to prospective athletes in high school summer camps. Funny way how news travels, isn't it, Jason, Patrick and Kebba?

0/10

Laying it on a bit thick. A good troll should stand on its own legs.

If only this were true. Too thick to even believe unless you were there.

...still shocked and waiting for more bombs to burst ...

Overshadowed is the grim MEN's team situation. I think back to XC when coach only ran ONE runner at Northeast Regionals after a dismal Heps.

Why one? He certainly wasn't getting to Nationals. To show the rest of the team that he thinks they suck? Were the non-runners following the coaches program? Not showing up for practice?

It seems contrary to the valued team camaraderie aspect of the sport so many know and love.

It seems odd to me - and supports the divisiveness aspect seen with the women's team.

shin splinter wrote:

You are wrong, you don't know the inside story. This is a very unhealthy situation. The injuries are out of control, the mental and physical health of the student athletes is at risk. There are students withdrawing from school to save eligibility because they are too injured to run, this type of thing shouldn't be happening at Harvard. They are being manipulated and led down a path to destruction. There are some athletes who are a mess and will never be the same again from a running standpoint, won't mention names because it is sad.

I have been associated with several Div. 1 programs, this is not the way it is done, it is not sustainable.

You're right that I'm not privy to the innermost details of the Harvard program.

Two facts stand out that are left out of 99.9% of the complaints:

1. Harvard has improved under PWD

2. There are members of the team, mostly newer and mostly more accomplished, that have very publicly supported PWD.

What I see from the outside is a new coach coming in and pushing out kids who aren't committed to dramatically improving themselves and the program.

I also know that a lot of D1 coaches are jerks. My son's coach is. It's actually very common. You kind of have to be a jerk or the athletes will walk all over you.

Marginal athletes often use injuries as an excuse. The ones that want to improve themselves, on the other hand, have to be protected from themselves. They'll train themselves into the ground if you let them.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I really don't care about Harvard T&F. But I think all of this can be explained by a guy trying to shake things up to make the team better. The team is better. Injuries happen when you try to maximize your talent. Those that have been comfortable are gonna quit, complain, etc.

Maybe there really is something sinister going on. But, I'm not convinced by what I've heard (including the most recent article by the volunteer coach). And I don't think you should ruin a D1 coach's career because they push their athletes, are rude to them, etc. If so, most D1 coaches would be looking for work.

But, I'm pretty sure Harvard will fire PWD. They have to protect the brand. So you'll get your wish and Harvard will return to mediocrity. Good news for Princeton and the rest of the Ivy League.