Kornheiser on Armstrong

Buffet Line... wrote:

C'Mon Flome,

It is Krispy Kreme, not Crispy Creme.

Tells you how often I eat them.

SCOTTH!

you don't understand what the point of his article is?????

"I want very much to believe LA is clean. I've drifted into a bit of cycling and my appreciation and interest in his accomplishments have risen dramatically. Watching him on OLN last summer was about the best 'ride' in sports ever for me. It's understatement to say he's an inspiration on the bike and off. He is deservedly 'bigger than life.'"

That is what the article is about! Did you read it?! How did you not take that from the article? Lance is inspirational, a hero in the eyes of most, and that is exactly what Tony was getting at. It doesn't even matter to many people if he's clean or not, as long as we never find out about it. He's helped so many people that it is his image, not whether he is on drugs, that is important to so many lives. I think you are thinking exactly what Tony was talking about in his aticle, but somehow didn't take the right message from it.

lancefan,

you've hit the nail on the head for the article. Kornheiser is saying people are examining LA as a hero and it is inconsequential to many if he dopes.

But, from reading the posters in this thread, there are few people that take TK's view. So, as opposed to Kornheiser's opinion, people do care whether an athlete is dirty or not.

lancefan said:

"It doesn't even matter to many people if he's clean or not, as long as we never find out about it. He's helped so many people that it is his image, not whether he is on drugs, that is important to so many lives."

Your comment "as long as we don't find out about it" is an interesting way to put it. It highlights a couple observations for me.

1. Whether intentional or not, it implies that the public doesn't care about the morality of cheating. As long as we don't know, ignorance is bliss.

2. It also reveals the difficulty facing the public when they set a hero up on a pedestal. Humans make bad decisions from time to time and once the hero shows a fault, they are unworthy of the previous level of respect.

Posters here don't have a "despite the fact that" attitude. The opinions in this thread have been very extreme and very polarized. Few are taking this middle ground. I think this is good. Once morality is viewed in degrees, people justify a bad decision by comparing it to an even worse decision.

A couple of posters have even gone to the point of refusing to believe LA can perform that well without using drugs. Again, two points are evident:

1. People don't simply view LA as a hero off the bike. He is looked at as a total package. Kornheiser argues LA is a hero for many off the bike and that is the difference. That viewpoint doesn't really take hold in this thread. People judge you on the whole person.

2. People are tired of following and cheering for athletes that end up falling from grace. They find it safer to limit their involvement with the athletes dominating sports because they believe a that there is a good possibility that the athlete is cheating.

The attitudes of the posters is refreshing and alarming. For me it has shown people do lend a lot of creedance to moral decisions in life and feel strongly about those who cheat. But, the price of this attitude has forced many to limit trust in their lives because their investment in fallen heroes take a toll.

Letsrun posters don't condone cheating, but they have seen so much of it that they are very suspect of top tier athletes.

So where do we go from here? Some high school kid reading this will some day be all-American. They know that people will view their accomplishments under a microscope. What that athlete needs to know is it isn't that hard to be a clean athlete. It is much harder to look in the mirror and know you're a cheat. Even if Kornheiser or lancefan or its not easy being green don't have proof.

lancefan, you quote me but somewhat out of context as I had more to say in that particular post. It IS of consequence to me if LA is using. I do have my doubts about his dominance. But...his example and extraordinary feats are so compelling and he's SO American, the possibility of PED's nearly gets lost in the scheme of things.

I don't get it. How would finding out Lance is using drugs change any of these positive feelings about him or disprove his toughness? You gotta reckon his nearest competitors are using as well. The elite playing field is as level as ever - just elevated farther above the rabble than it normally would be.

I really want Lance to be proven to be using. Then we will all be forced to deal with the obvious fact that good people can have conflicting qualities that defy our ready attempts to categorize people (if this wasn't true, who would ever read a novel?). What a more colorful world it is when people defy easy description and characters are richer than we initially thought. How boring Armstrong would be if he was just a squeaky clean kid, who out of the force of some self-created will, overcame obstacles and rose to victory.

A friend of mine likes to refer to Armstrong's cancer surgery as his "muscle reduction surgery" that was a crucial ingrediant to being able to exploit his talent and work ethic that was formerly being hindered by his propensity to put on mass with exercise. No cancer, no Tour de France win. Perhaps cancer was an "unfair advantage" and others should be able to take drugs to equalize it.

Bump

It really wouldn't surprise me if Lance did test positive, I just hope he doesn't for a lot of peoples sake. Pre-cancer, Lance was always a cocky loudmouth, willing to do anything to win. A lot has changed since then obviously, but who's to say that, even though he has an inspirational public face, deep down he still has a selfish, win at all cost, attitude? This coming from a guy who absolutely loves Lance. I'm just saying it wouldn't be shocking looking at the history of his personality. He has done a lot of work to try to improve him image in the US and abroad...

Ok brainwashed lance fan

Let me re-phrase: "It would be like competing with a BMX bike, or it would be like competing on a unicycle."

Unless you are truely thick headed you should have been able to figure out what was being said.

Again, many people on this board seem to have difficulty holding two thoughts simultaneously in their heads. Lance works the hardest and prepares the most. He's also highly talented. Therefore he does it all clean, goes the logic. Guess what people? Just about everything I just said is true with the exception of it being done "clean." Lance Armstrong is the most prepared, dedidicated, meticulous, tenacious, and focused in the world of professional cycling. This includes taking EPO. In fact, it would be utterly ridiculous to pay attention to every concievable detail and then to suddenly forget your practically mandatory dosage of EPO. Talk to people on the tour. Masseurs, mechanics, cooks, whoever. EVERYONE is on EPO. You cannot get by without it. Do I want to believe this? Fuck no. But this is the reality. Do I have a smoking gun? No. Just because there is no smoking gun doesn't make it a fairy tale. The truth is the truth. I understand why people get so upset over this issue. It cuts harshly into your beliefs. Ignorance is perhaps bliss, but I've never been one to want the sugar coated version.

You are a complete and utter cretin. If you knew anything about the sport you'd know that it is extremely difficult mentally and physically.You need balls of steel to stay in the saddle for hours and hours on end and to navigate hairpin turns after bombing down a straight at speeds in excess of 5o mph. Plus the peaks of pain and recovery a cyclist goes through is somewhat analogous to doing balls out intervals on the track but extending this for a couple of hours or so. Perhaps they don't compare to your standard of a "real man." Whatever that means. If your gay, that's cool, but don't project this repression on to your disdain for cyclists. Good luck.

Running as ultimate test of athletic prowess?! Classic! Stated just like a runner who desperately needs to convince himself that what he does matters.

If you must belittle the ambitions of others, you must have doubts about your own.

Hogan Von Hogenbaggenmeister wrote:

You are a complete and utter cretin. If you knew anything about the sport you'd know that it is extremely difficult mentally and physically.You need balls of steel to stay in the saddle for hours and hours on end and to navigate hairpin turns after bombing down a straight at speeds in excess of 5o mph. Plus the peaks of pain and recovery a cyclist goes through is somewhat analogous to doing balls out intervals on the track but extending this for a couple of hours or so. Perhaps they don't compare to your standard of a "real man." Whatever that means. If your gay, that's cool, but don't project this repression on to your disdain for cyclists. Good luck.

hey hogan you loser! lighten up! all ol' dean k was doin' was statin' the obvious. bikin' is cool, no doubt. don't get your panties all twisted up! but i do agree that runnin' is the mark of a MAN. face it, bikes are a jonny come lately to human history. dude, we've been runnin' since day one basically. it's primal my friend. bikin' has too much technology between athlete and effort. and anyway, we all know that most elite bikers are druggies. a lot runners may be too. but not as many i would guess.

but again, don't be such a weaksister or YOU'LL be the one who seems like a fudgepacker.

out.

Sir Lurkalot wrote:

Running as ultimate test of athletic prowess?! Classic! Stated just like a runner who desperately needs to convince himself that what he does matters.

If you must belittle the ambitions of others, you must have doubts about your own.

sir whackalot,

it's not about "ambitions" you numbnuts. all i was pointing out is that bicycle racing is, for the most part, a lesser test of athleticism than is running. that's all. don't be such a sally. act like ya gotta pair. ok?

I just noticed that "Dean K" and "all I do is run" are the exact same person... Wow LetsRun can be gay sometimes. By the way... FUCK YOU AND YOUR IGNORANT MIND Dean K.

Laughably Naive wrote:

Absolutely the stupidest thing I've read on this board today, and that's saying something!

junior wrote:

As for the yellow wrist bands- people will do what ever the can to help in the fight against cancer.

I agree, I've seen more than a few people who were wearing them and smoking at the same time. Yea, they really care about cancer.

Those live strong rubberbands make for a great cock ring. Just put it around you entire package you can bang for hours.

but yea seriously those things are only a fashion statment to most people.

iloverunning wrote:

I just noticed that "Dean K" and "all I do is run" are the exact same person... Wow LetsRun can be gay sometimes. By the way... FUCK YOU AND YOUR IGNORANT MIND Dean K.

hey i loverimming!

i'm not all i do is run, dude. but whatever. wanna race? or are you too busy ridin' your li'l bike? c'mon dude! have a li'l fun. and what's all this "gay" stuff. you been takin' it up the ol' poopshoot or somethin'? lighten up, mi amigo!

peace!

All you boys just are hating on Lance cause he's strong enough to be MY man! And you li'l BOYS know it. Even with one ball, Lance is twice the man you boys will ever be. Runners are way too skinny.