Caster Semenya debate

trollism wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

She probably has some transgender condition. We do not know which one. This renders the OPs long post about 5-ARD as PURE SPECULATION.

The drug she was taking was not a testosterone inhibiter/blocker. She was taking a drug designed to combat oestrogen deficiency in post menopausal women. (Not oestrogen itself). Some kind of defective ovaries maybe?

She could have one of literally hundreds of medical conditions including transgender issues. Not proof of one specific transgender condition we have just heard about on Letsrun called 5-ARD.

Don't. Be. Foolish.

Think what you are saying.

Why didn't she get another TUE after the CAS decision? Did her condition suddenly improve?

The CAS decision, the stopping of the medication and the 10 seconds off her 800m time seem to happen all around the same time.

Do you see these three things as being coincidental?

How are you not understanding.

Yes, her medical condition may be performance enhancing.

No, this is not proof that she is transgender or has the specific transgender condition OP is banging on about called 5-ARD.

Let's not pretend to be geneticists. She could have any one of a number of hormonal deficiencies or otherwise. Including transgender issues.

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

How are you not understanding.

Yes, her medical condition may be performance enhancing.

No, this is not proof that she is transgender or has the specific transgender condition OP is banging on about called 5-ARD.

Let's not pretend to be geneticists. She could have any one of a number of hormonal deficiencies or otherwise. Including transgender issues.

You seem to be arguing semantics without actually making a proper point.

You're either very naive or you have a personal reason for the impassioned defence. You're not South African are you?

trollism wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

How are you not understanding.

Yes, her medical condition may be performance enhancing.

No, this is not proof that she is transgender or has the specific transgender condition OP is banging on about called 5-ARD.

Let's not pretend to be geneticists. She could have any one of a number of hormonal deficiencies or otherwise. Including transgender issues.

You seem to be arguing semantics without actually making a proper point.

You're either very naive or you have a personal reason for the impassioned defence. You're not South African are you?

Niyonsaba is not South African. Or is that semantics to you also?

The OP is posting specific details about some condition and claiming that all those he named has it. With zero evidence. I said he has no evidence, you and others say you do have evidence but you don't!

Niyonsaba likely has something different to what OP claims and that condition will affect her in an entirely different way to what has been claimed.

We don't even know if she has high T.

It is wild and ridiculous to claim we know exactly what medical condition the woman has!

But then this is Letsrun. El G is dirty because he 'just is', as I saw earlier.

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

But then this is Letsrun. El G is dirty because he 'just is', as I saw earlier.

No offence, but you would have to have a mental illness to believe El G was clean.

Knowing what we know now, it's simply an impossibility. Or are you suggesting he was the only clean Moroccan among countless dirty athletes and coaches (many of whom directly linked to the guy.)?

trollism wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

But then this is Letsrun. El G is dirty because he 'just is', as I saw earlier.

No offence, but you would have to have a mental illness to believe El G was clean.

Knowing what we know now, it's simply an impossibility. Or are you suggesting he was the only clean Moroccan among countless dirty athletes and coaches (many of whom directly linked to the guy.)?

I don't care. I will take evidence I am simply saying that someone posted "he just is".

Which is the same attitude by which we have decided that the BURUNDIAN athlete has a particular, rare condition called 5-ARD.

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

trollism wrote:

No offence, but you would have to have a mental illness to believe El G was clean.

Knowing what we know now, it's simply an impossibility. Or are you suggesting he was the only clean Moroccan among countless dirty athletes and coaches (many of whom directly linked to the guy.)?

I don't care. I will take evidence I am simply saying that someone posted "he just is".

Which is the same attitude by which we have decided that the BURUNDIAN athlete has a particular, rare condition called 5-ARD.

So you're not disputing that these athletes have a clear and unfair advantage and should not be competing with the women, but your dispute is the exact medical condition?

I agree with you then.

(On the El G front, given that a positive test was never possible, what more evidence are you looking for?)

There are quite a few leaked reports of 46-XY, no uterus or ovaries, and functional testes productive of androgens (this is a key piece of information - way more important than external genitalia in developmental biology terms); it would be irresponsible to claim ignorance of these data when engaging in such discussions. Further features, such as thickened thyroid cartilage, serve as additional examples of male secondary sex characteristics.

In the hypothetical event of these concomitant data points, anybody with an MD or PhD in the relevant biological sciences would exercise substantial unease in allowing the individual to compete as a female. None of this is data is Caster's fault, if it did indeed apply to her, but it would greatly impact the playing field for genetic (and phenotypic) female competitors.

2017 now wrote:

Didn't read the poorly-written OP past a few lines.

I love how SJW running fans are crying and want the authorities to help because Semenya is beating everyone.

Waaaaaaaah she's too faaaaaaaast and has advaaaaaaantages. Waaaaaaaaah.

Dumb jealous SJWs, train harder or coach better.

did milos shaft give you a good ride last night?

simple logic wrote:

There are quite a few leaked reports of 46-XY, no uterus or ovaries, and functional testes productive of androgens (this is a key piece of information - way more important than external genitalia in developmental biology terms); it would be irresponsible to claim ignorance of these data when engaging in such discussions. Further features, such as thickened thyroid cartilage, serve as additional examples of male secondary sex characteristics.

In the hypothetical event of these concomitant data points, anybody with an MD or PhD in the relevant biological sciences would exercise substantial unease in allowing the individual to compete as a female. None of this is data is Caster's fault, if it did indeed apply to her, but it would greatly impact the playing field for genetic (and phenotypic) female competitors.

I assume you are talking about Caster firstly. Because I know for a fact there is no such evidence available about Niyonsaba and Wambui.

Secondly, not MD would ever diagnose an individual with 5-ARD from some rumours and a photo.

Thirdly, please link the evidence of what you have said.

Fourthly, if it were so simple to distinguish between male and female then it would have been done. Don't be stupid. There is a long and complex history of sex testing.

Dutee Chand has elevated T but there was NO EVIDENCE that it was enhancing her performance unfairly. Do you get it? Evidence.

Nobody is diagnosing anybody. I enumerated 'hypothetical data,' which happens to match several high-profile articles entailing data leaks regarding Semenya (you are free to use Google and find the relevant information yourself - it is extraordinarily easy to find). Also, you keep mentioning 5-alpha reductase deficiency, although I never have.

I would urge you to learn a little bit more about embryologic and fetal sexual development, to start, before blathering on in a rather unscientific manner. It is insufficient - and quite embarrassing - to say "transgender conditions are widely varied and complex." "Transgender condition" is not a scientific or medical term, and "widely varied and complex" is a throwaway phrase for those without the ability to discuss specifics at any great length.

Lastly, I would urge you to stay away from ad hominem attacks ("don't be stupid") in your future discussions, assuming you are open to having open and constructive debate.

Best of luck.

simple logic wrote:

Nobody is diagnosing anybody.

Ok good. Case closed.

Wrong wrong wrong wrote:

simple logic wrote:

Nobody is diagnosing anybody.

Ok good. Case closed.

You ok? You sound extremely angry. Hope you feel better soon!

Here are the excerpts I based my opinions on: 




[1] This article:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold



states: 



". . . the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it."




[2] Here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2016/08/16/caster-semenya-competing-at-rio-olympics-2016-is-not-fair-on-any/



it is written: 



"last summer, came the decision that looks to have changed all that when the Court of Arbitration for Sport scrapped regulations imposed by athletics’ governing body that required female athletes to take testosterone-lowering medication if their hormone levels were above a certain level. 

Semenya’s coach insists that decision is not the reason for the South African’s subsequent improvement, but it is hard to believe him." 




[3] Malcolm Gladwell says in this article:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/caster-semenya-and-the-logic-of-olympic-competition





"When Semenya’s testosterone was lowered to “normal” levels, she ran in the two-minute range for the eight hundred metres, which put her comfortably among the best in the world. Now that that restriction has been lifted, she is running six seconds faster. She has gone from being very good to being, potentially, the greatest half-miler in the history of women’s running. No one will beat her in Rio. She could run the last fifty yards backward and still win. How do you think the other women in that race feel about that?"




[4] and finally in this Toronto star article it states: 



https://www.thestar.com/sports/olympics/2016/08/17/caster-semenya-keeps-silent-as-debate-rages-over-her-races-dimanno.html





"Semenya could compete, the IAAF concluded, but only if she — and any other female athlete with the condition — took medication that suppressed her testosterone levels. A benchmark was set, disallowing women to compete as women if their testosterone levels were roughly three times higher than testosterone naturally occurring in 99 per cent of female athletes. 

Semenya is not known to have made any objection and presumably embarked on the corrective regimen. Her times fell off precipitously.”

Hahaha OP clearly thinks that 'Caster Semenya' is 'yes, a real man' when the letters are rearranged.

What a moran.

Why does everyone come here to troll? Doesn't anyone have a job or school?

[4] POSTED

Its hilarious how a group of white men on trackie.ca are acting all offended on behalf of a black woman.

Please! Give it a rest. Your political correctness is not only fake, but downright embarrassing.

If you are so interested in minorities, then recruit them into your all white distance running clubs. But you never will and OFSAA XC will remain 95 - 99% white.

Melissa Bishop was the first woman to cross the finish line in that Olympic 800m final. The bronze medallist Wambui looks more masculine that the winner of the Mens 800m.

Well in the end it cost Canada an Olympic medal! Lets see if Semenya sends you all a letter of thanks for supporting her on this forum.

Big thank you to 'LetsRun'. Finally we have a website where the truth and non-PC talk is allowed. Notice the quality and honesty of the posts here! Bravo.

What we need is more non-PC forums like this one, as it is our opinions that really matter on this subject. Not some PC SJW white men who all know each other and want to behave like they are the champions of black women rights. Whatever.

trackie.ca has been entirely taken over by paid politically correct posters (PPCP)? Is that website owned by Justin Trudeau?

The politically correct behaviour of these posters is exactly what will destroy the integrity of the sport of track and field.

Go ahead, keep celebrating the participation and success of Y Chromosome Hermaphrodites who have ten times the level of testosterone than real women. It is truly over for women sports.

It will destroy the sport . . . and eventually such PC people will destroy the nation of Canada. Just like they have destroyed Sweden:

https://youtu.be/RZsvdg1dkJ4

https://youtu.be/o_znVnOizU8

Too bad for the sport of track and field and too bad for Canada.

At least Shannon Rowbury has shown some wisdom:

https://youtu.be/qMQJeL302Qs

But wait . . . she is American.

#NeverPC #NeverAWMDRF #NeverSJW

Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever. Look at him showing off after his races, flexing his muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off his shoulders. Sticking out his tongue for the cameras etc. 



Also, Semenya knows that he has ten times the level of testosterone than the average female. If Semenya had any morals, ethics or class, he would normalize his testosterone levels with medication or surgery . . . or quit the sport . . . or compete in the mens category. But Semenya won’t do any of these. Semenya has every right to compete if he normalizes his testosterone levels (either by ruling or by personal choice). Otherwise, Semenya does not belong in these womens races. It is a travesty of justice, occurring in the name of bullshit political correctness. 



How can Semenya even be proud of his Olympic medal? Is that really how African nations want to win Olympic medals? By finding Y chromosome hermaphrodites from rural villages and throwing them into the women races? 



Semenya has no ovaries, no uterus, no breasts and no secondary sexual characteristics of a woman. Semenya married a woman. I don’t see how on earth Semenya fits the description of a woman and why on earth Semenya should be allowed to compete against normal women. 



This truly is the end of women sports. In a few years if this trend continues, all world class competitions will be taken over by hermaphrodite athletes and regular woman will not stand a chance of winning, no matter how hard they train. 



You have these PC white men on trackie.ca trying to raise their status and reputation in their AWMDRF (all white male distance runner fraternity). They are praising Semenya and saying that Semenya belongs in the same category as 'the greats'. It makes me want to vomit.



I think trying to raise your reputation by being super politically correct among the AWMDRF (all white male distance runner fraternity) is not only clearly disingenuous, but really just empty talk. Such talk is cheap. 



Put your words into action and recruit some minority runners, or better yet, some intersex runners into your all white running clubs, then we will see if you really are truly supportive of such athletes. I have not seen this happen since I started running in Ontario three decades ago . . . and likely never will.



I personally think the only time the AWMDRF has any contact with a woman of colour is when they pour a bottle of Aunt Jemima maple syrup over their morning pancakes. 



But alas, they just report your post to Adam Stacey and he conveniently deletes it and then sends an email stating ‘your post does not contribute to the forum’. What he really should say is ‘your post is not PC enough for our AWMDRF forum’. All this in Canada - a country that (supposedly) has freedom of speech in their bill of rights. Not anymore thanks to good ‘ol Justin Trudeau.

Caster Semenya = Yes, A Secret Man

Bill, thank you for not returning to Canada.

Melissa Bishop is someone I genuinely admire, respect and think of as an outstanding Canadian. She has to be very careful about what she says. Otherwise she could lose her Nike sponsorship.

For her to say ‘we Canadians celebrate diversity’ is a safe politically correct statement that misses the point entirely.

First of all, Canadians don’t really celebrate diversity. Multiculturalism is an epic failure in Canada. The Canadian government is so desperate for slaves, that they have brought in people from the poorest, most different and backward cultural backgrounds that you can possibly imagine.

So no, Canadians, don't celebrate this. They despise it and feel this hostile takeover by immigrants from third world countries is tearing apart the fabric of the nation. A nation that was perhaps one of the best in the world . . . but not for much longer thanks to Justin Trudeau.

Many of these (diverse) immigrants do not respect the laws of Canada, want to change existing laws and openly disrespect the established Canadian culture and the people who have lived in Canada for generations.

But, everyone in Canada must be politically correct, otherwise they will be called bigots, racists or xenophobes. Such political correctness is recipe for disaster for Canada. Well not me, I always speak openly. As follows:

Yes, Sikhs should wear a helmet when they drive a motorbike.

Yes, Muslim women should remove their burka when taking their passport photo.

Yes, people should learn English when they immigrate to Canada. (French if they live in Quebec).

No, you can’t force the public school system to allow your child time away from class to pray.

Yes, in Canada, people have the right to draw and publish whatever cartoon they want.

No, restaurants in Canada should not be forced to serve meat that is Halal.

No, beating your wife will not be tolerated and passed off as just an ethnic thing.

No, we don’t want sharia law or anything that even resembles that in Canada.

and . . .

NO! Hermaphrodites with a Y chromosome, and ten times the testosterone levels should not compete with real women in sports.

They must normalize their testosterone level to be the same as all the other women. Otherwise they should leave the sport and show some dignity and respect to all the women who are following the rules of fair play.

#NeverPC #NeverSJW #NeverAWMDRF