Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

Elvan Abeylegesse finished second in the women's 10,000 meters to claim the silver medal, with the gold medal going to Tirunesh Dibaba. Kara Goucher of the United States took bronze while Jo Pavey of Great Britain was left out of the medals with a fourth place finish.

One year later, Abeylegesse won silver medals in the 5,000 meters and 10,000 meters at the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. The gold medals in both events went to Tirunesh Dibaba. In the 10,000 meters, she finished ahead of American Shalane Flanagan, who ran the American record of 30:22.22 for bronze.

Abeylegesse had been suspended after news of several re-tested samples from the 2005 and 2007 world championships showed elite athletes using banned substances. She reportedly tested positive for the steroid Stanozolol.

In conclusion:

1) It is time for Kara Goucher to receive the Silver Medal in the 10,000m at the 2007 World Championships.

2) It is time for Jo Pavey to receive the Bronze Medal in the 10,000m at the 2007 World Championships.

3) It is time for Shalane Flanagan to receive the Silver Medal in the 10,000m at the 2008 Olympics

4) It is time for Alysia Montano to receive the Bronze Medal in the 800m at the 2012 Olympics. 👍

5) Go Alysia Montano (USA)!!!

6) Go Kara Goucher (USA)!!!

7) Go Jo Pavey (Not-That-Great Britain)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

8) Go Shalane Flanagan (USA, IRISH human)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RejectRunner wrote:

Have you set a recent pr? Now, train like you normally would on EPO for 2 weeks, you have a new PR. But I do agree, pushups are the best performance enhancing drug.

That's because you are going from 38:00 to 37:00. Someone in the low 28-minute range or better is already in top condition and it won't help them as much or at all. That is what Canova has been saying.

Works for turtles like you wrote:

RejectRunner wrote:

Have you set a recent pr? Now, train like you normally would on EPO for 2 weeks, you have a new PR. But I do agree, pushups are the best performance enhancing drug.

That's because you are going from 38:00 to 37:00. Someone in the low 28-minute range or better is already in top condition and it won't help them as much or at all. That is what Canova has been saying.

Doping does not work on the women at the top of the all-time lists:

Let's take a look at the women's all-time 5000m list for women from Europe:

#5) Gabriela Szabo PR 14:31.48, from Romania, drugs in car story.

#4) Olga Yegorova PR 14:29.32, EPO positive, banned for doping 2008.

#3) Paula Radcliffe PR 14:29.11……………..CLEAN…………………..

#2) Elvan Abeylegesse PR 14:24.68, from Turkey, banned for doping.

#1) Liliya Shobukhova PR 14:23.75, European record, banned for doping.

Here is the all-time women's 3000m list:

1 8:06.11 Wang Junxia CHN 09.01.73 1 Beijing 13.09.1993 (= 14:03 5K)

2 8:12.18 Qu Yunxia CHN 25.12.72 2 Beijing 13.09.1993

3 8:12.19 Wang Junxia CHN 09.01.73 1h2 Beijing 12.09.1993

4 8:12.27 Qu Yunxia CHN 25.12.72 2h2 Beijing 12.09.1993

5 8:16.50 Zhang Linli CHN 06.03.73 3 Beijing 13.09.1993

6 8:19.78 Ma Liyan CHN 03.11.68 3h2 Beijing 12.09.1993

7 8:20.68 Helen Obiri KEN 13.12.89 1 Ad-Dawhah 09.05.2014

8 8:21.14 Mercy Cherono KEN 07.05.91 2 Ad-Dawhah 09.05.2014

9 8:21.26 Ma Liyan CHN 03.11.68 4 Beijing 13.09.1993

10 8:21.42 Gabriela Szabo ROU 14.11.75 1 Monaco 19.07.2002

Where are all of Renato's SPECIAL KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS BORN, LIVING, AND DOING HIGH VOLUME-HIGH INTENSITY TRAINING WITH SPECIAL BLOCKS, ETC., ETC., AT HIGH ALTITUDE???

Marathon all time list:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 13.04.2003

2 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 Chicago 0,571782407

3 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 0,73431713

4 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova RUS 13.11.77 Chicago 09.10.2011

5 2:18:37 Mary Keitany KEN 18.01.82 1 London 0,942731481

6 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba KEN 21.07.72 1 Chicago 0,321770833

7 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 14.04.2002

8 2:18:57a Rita Sitienei Jeptoo KEN 15.02.81 1 Boston 21.04.2014

Two of the top five women of all-time (= 40%) have been banned for doping with EPO.

Why are a British woman and a Russian EPO doper at the top of the list???

Marathon all time list:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 13.04.2003

2 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 Chicago 0,571782407

3 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 0,73431713

4 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova RUS 13.11.77 Chicago 09.10.2011

5 2:18:37 Mary Keitany KEN 18.01.82 1 London 0,942731481

6 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba KEN 21.07.72 1 Chicago 0,321770833

7 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 1 London 14.04.2002

8 2:18:57a Rita Sitienei Jeptoo KEN 15.02.81 1 Boston 21.04.2014

Two of the top five women (Liliya and Rita) of all-time (= 40%) have been banned for doping with EPO.

There is nothing to see here.

OK???

khow wrote:

I think horse racing proves out that drugs are not the be-all, end-all to running faster. Check this great article about the sub-2hr Project, but basically no horse has been able to better Secretariat's time of 1:59, even with all the doping that goes on in horse racing with some pretty powerful anabolics and EPO.

I do agree on one aspect of Canova - I do believe I would be marginally faster if I took drugs because I would psychologically feel like Superman.. almost what the author is stating why the horse records haven't improved, because most of the gains are MENTAL.

http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/

Interesting J.O.

There is A LOT MORE MONEY INVOLVED in horse racing than in humans running.

There is a lot of fancy stuff at the Kentucky Derby like fancy hats, fancy suits, and really rich people who own very expensive horses.

The humans dope the horses with the same drugs used on humans like anabolic steroids, EPO…and some more fancy things…so that they can cheat…and win prizes…and medals…and money.

The drug testers then have to develop fancy tests to detect the fancy things that the fancy dopers are using to DOPE HORSES.

For example:

Hypoxia-inducible factor-1alpha (HIF-1alpha) is a transcription factor which increases the gene expression of about 200 different genes, including the gene for EPO. Inhalation of the noble gases xenon or krypton can increase production of HIF-1alpha, which signals cells in the kidney to increase transcription and production of erythropoietin (EPO), which travels to the bone marrow and binds to progenitor cells, increasing erythropoiesis, which is the production of new red blood cells containing hemoglobin.

Your post mentioned "Superman".

Superman is faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive. He can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Superman came to the planet Earth…from the planet…Krypton.

It is just a coincidence.

Look!!!

Up in the sky!!!

It's Superman!!!

Works for turtles like you wrote:

That's because you are going from 38:00 to 37:00. Someone in the low 28-minute range or better is already in top condition and it won't help them as much or at all. That is what Canova has been saying.

And yet we have seen EPO help runners go from 29/30 mins 10k to 27-30 mins 10k (eg Lombard) ...

casual obsever wrote:

khow wrote:

I think horse racing proves out that drugs are not the be-all, end-all to running faster. Check this great article about the sub-2hr Project, but basically no horse has been able to better Secretariat's time of 1:59, even with all the doping that goes on in horse racing with some pretty powerful anabolics and EPO.

Or it proves how powerful the drugs are, namely if the horses of the 70s were more doped because of lack of control tests. For example, ELISA came in 88.

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.timeline.php?timelineID=000017#1960-1989

That is reminiscent of all the records in athletics of the 80s, some of which are still unbeaten.

Hey Casual, you better be careful posting well researched historical doping archives around here. About a month back I posted a link where everyone on the 1968 US Olympics track team admitted to trying steriods. My post was down in less then ten hours.

[/quote]

Just to clarify my post, the criticism wasn't that much directed specifically against you but I used your post to illustrate the point of many people to cherry pick evidence. I have noticed this Modus Operandi in some other posters in this and other forums as well as in some published material (see page 11 of this thread).

Leaving aside the all the OFFtopic-issues and ad hominem attacks you brought up in your fanatical rant, I'd appreciate if you could clarify the issue on when exactly did Mrs. Savinova started gaining speed the enormous boost from her PED-program that turned "a high responder to a World/Olympic Champion". Here I rearranged her seasonal best times chronologically combining both the indoor and outdoor figures for every year. I am not claiming that she didn't take PED nor that there couldn't exist speed gain from her questionable habits, but the progress is linear, in my opinion.

2007

2:03.90 (Feb)

2:00.78 (Jul)

2008

1:59.46 (Feb)

2:01.07 (May)

2009

1:58.10 (Mar)

1:57.90 (Jul)

2010

(indoor)

1:58.26 (Mar)

1:57.56 (Jul)

2011

1:55.87 (Sep)

2012

1:56.19 (Aug)[/quote]

You're posturing on this issue by trying to undermine & minimize the effects of EPO & steriods with high-responders. For one, using your table you can see an "enormous boost" in her 07 jump of 3.12 secs in 5 months! 😨. Secondly, her rapid progression that culminated in her shocking Gold at the 2011 Worlds where see beat a World-class field including defeating Semenya...who, herself, has a genetic advantage with hyperandrogenism. The next year in the Olympics she annihilates another World-class field including another defeat of Semenya (Savinova could have easily jogged the last 20m Lol). Also, in an interview, Montano mentions Savinova jumped from 2:02 to 1:56 in one year while she could only shave off a dismal 0.12 secs in the same time frame. (I'm not sure of the time period she's talking about):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/11/09/russias-doping-cheated-alysia-montano-out-of-an-olympic-medal-and-she-knew-it-all-along/?utm_term=.932f6166f903

Not sure why you're hung up on all this. There's a state sponsored doping program with Russia's T&F athletes that resulted in a ban at Rio, evidence that Savinova & Poistogova were using EPO & Oxandrolone, which definitely is effective with a high-responder in the 800m where endurance & raw speed is needed. And though WADA is calling for a life-time ban for both athletes, Montano gets screwed out of a Bronze and the financial perks that comes with medaling at the Olympics.

IMO, you're either a Russian doping sympathizer, particulary with Savinova, or a coach, trainer, clinician, etc., who naively believes that 02-vector doping and steriods can't produce significant performance benefits with a high-responder. Either way, that seems to be your "Modus Operandi" in this and other forums.😞

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

My post was down in less then ten hours.

I noticed. Certain dirty "secrets" are not to be mentioned here.

That makes the discussion with the pro-doper fraction here somewhat, say, uneven.

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

My post was down in less then ten hours.

I noticed. Certain dirty "secrets" are not to be mentioned here.

That makes the discussion with the pro-doper fraction here somewhat, say, uneven.

So...you're say that there's not a level playing field when it comes to doping discussions? 😄

Works for turtles like you wrote:

RejectRunner wrote:

Have you set a recent pr? Now, train like you normally would on EPO for 2 weeks, you have a new PR. But I do agree, pushups are the best performance enhancing drug.

That's because you are going from 38:00 to 37:00. Someone in the low 28-minute range or better is already in top condition and it won't help them as much or at all. That is what Canova has been saying.

That's not really a good representation of Canova's argument. He argues that there is something specific about east Africans (born, living, and training at altitude) who are of the top talent (although this always seems to elude definition) that they specifically are not helped by EPO. He admits other PEDs work, such as steroids.

It is really an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence.

Russian doping scandal has no relation to Canova's argument.

Gasser wrote:

For one, using your table you can see an "enormous boost" in her 07 jump of 3.12 secs in 5 months!... Montano mentions Savinova jumped from 2:02 to 1:56 in one year while she could only shave off a dismal 0.12 secs in the same time frame. (I'm not sure of the time period she's talking about)

While I fully stand behind the accuracy of the data I provided, I'd be very cautious in reaching any definite conclusion by comparing outdoor times to indoor times as it can't be proven that the 2:03.90 value from February 2007 was actually her 800m record at that time as there is almost no data on her achievements either from the IAAF or from Russian sources before 2007. Even if accurate, the 3 second "enormous boost" wouldn't be that suspicious from OFF-season indoor track environment to outdoor ON-season for a 21-year athlete pretty much at the beginning of her running career.

In the end, I think that my key allegation is sound regardless of you once again diverting the issue by wasting half of your message once again only bitching and whining about my motives. You are untruthful if you maintain the story about "8 second" improvement in one year for Savinova and so is Mrs. Montaña in her "6 second" allegations.

Just by going through her times recorded in this Russian website, I fail to see much fluctuations in her performances and her 800m times seem to be around a few second range pretty consistently within every year.

Once again, this has nothing to do with "whitewashing" anyone, but simply just excepting at least some critical thinking from my fellow LRC-posters.

The data you stand behind is from a Russian Athletic site that is questionable given their scandal. Geez...I can't imagine why there isn't any data on her prior to 2007 - probably because she started on the "program" and her times were unimpressive prior. Lol. And what exactly do you know about comparing indoor with outdoor 800m times?

I think your motives are clear; you support PED use with the Russian track & distance runners. Who in the World would come on a running forum and defend a career doper, imperiously imply that her PED use wasn't that much of a factor in her ill-gotten World & Olympic Gold medal achievements, and arrogantly call Montano a lier.

in reference to secretariat .............................................

1.

a horse aint a human

secretariat suppose to have a massive heart for horses

that carried in that lineage .

2.

epo works different in horses

give human epo to a horse and can kill it

due to immune reaction to it .

and horses already at pretty max quotient in terms

of blood volume even if could source horse epo variant

off course normal epo was tried on horses but didnt prove

to be the enhancer thought would be in sprint or longer distances

and with risk to horses health , as well as dose/ price to dope horse

3.

dealing with throughbread horses

and conditions for that kentucky derby

4.

again a sweetspot with any doping timeline

and secretariat is that with steroid era in sprint racing

right horse , right time ,better doping knowledge from trial and error

lack of testing etc etc .

5.

example of recent dominant flat horses like FRANKLE in uk

or american pharoah ,first triple crown winner in long time

suggest that IGF-1 lr3 works just as good in horses

but again to dope horse on this need to be big player with enough cash

to be able to sourse amount of it nessary to dope horse for flat career .

worth the investment if works ,in terms of stud fees alone afterwards

The data 800m data is from her official IAAF website, if its origin is dubious is another matter.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/russia/mariya-savinova-231384

If the mere possibility that there could exist some natural difference between OFFseason-indoor and INseason-outdoor times is totally beyond your intellectual capabilities, that is more your problem than mine.

Out of curiosity, I went through my contributions and I haven't seen one pro-PED word in any of my them, so I'll restate once again my position which was clear from my first post; there is no overnight nor overyear miraculous transformation for Mariya Savinova. Whether she gained advantage from the Russian PED program or whether she should be a target of disciplinary measures with her records erased and trophies taken away are totally different issues.

Interesting.

Savinova was probably doping the entire time period.

Linear doping caused linear improvement to 1:55.87 in the 800m and a Russian doper won the Olympic gold medal in 2012 at the London Olympics.

What happened in the women's 1500m in 2012 at the London Olympics?

Earlier this year, Aslı Çakır Alptekin was stripped of the Olympic gold medal she had won in the 1500m at London 2012 because of inconsistencies in her athlete biological passport (ABP).

Last month it was reported that Gamze Bulut, Alptekin's training partner and the silver medallist, had also failed a test following analysis of her ABP.

In 2013 Nevin Yanıt, the Turkish double European 100m hurdles champion, was banned for two years after testing positive for anabolic steroids.

She was one of 31 Turkish athletes banned in 2013, including hammer thrower EÅŸref Apak, the 2004 Olympic silver medallist.

At the time, IAAF President Lamine Diack had warned Turkey that its poor record on doping threatened to undermine Istanbul's bid to host the 2020 Olympics and Paralympics.

It emerged last year, however, that two of Diack's sons had tried to bribe Alptekin so the IAAF would help cover-up her positive dope test and allow her to keep her Olympic gold medal.

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1036024/abeylegesse-banned-for-two-years-but-manager-claims-eight-inconsistencies-in-iaaf-analysis

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2015/11/12/iaaf-corruption-police-find-bribe-money-gabriel-dolle-home

There is nothing to see here.

No worries.

Don't take my word for it:1) Ashenden explains many reasons why 21.88% does not count. You seem to know how to research publications. Ashenden's papers COUNT.2) Mourhit is not a "Spanish or Portuguese documented case", because he is not Spanish or Portuguese.3) Of course, studies show what is under study in controlled conditions. Any scientist can tell you "dangers of extrapolation".4) The OP told us this thread was about the men, specifically observing that Russian women succeeded, where Russian men did not.

The most important part of that article on Abeylegesse:

The 33.333-year-old naturalised Ethiopian was one of 28 athletes for whom adverse findings were revealed by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) last year following re-testing of samples from the 2005 and 2007 World Championships.

Abeylegesse finished second to Tirunesh Dibaba of Ethiopia in the 2007 IAAF World Championships 10,000 metres in Osaka.

She seems certain to lose that medal, meaning her SILVER MEDAL would go to original bronze medallist KARA GOUCHER of the United States, with Great Britain’s JO PAVEY taking possession of the BRONZE MEDAL.

Also expected to be taken away are the Olympic 5,000m and 10,000m silver medals Abeylegesse won at Beijing 2008, both times following home Dibaba.

The SILVER MEDAL in the 10,000m would go to SHALANE FLANAGAN (Irish) of the United States.

Hey.

Wait a second.

Did you say Irish???

That is really weird because I was just reading an article in the IRISH MIRROR:

http://i4.irishmirror.ie/incoming/article6915888.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/PaulaMain.jpg

Do you think that it might be a Coincidental Irish Synchronicityâ„¢ (Irish)???

Update Coincidental Irish Synchronicityâ„¢ (Irish):

1) Amy Cragg (married to the speedy Irish leprechaun Alistair Cragg).

2) Shalane Flanagan (Irish)

3) Molly Huddle (Irish)

https://www.facebook.com/hypo2/photos/a.181731141864880.32731.154386924599302/902644203106900/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/hypo2/photos/a.181731141864880.32731.154386924599302/1050316895006296/?type=3&theater

(Go Jo Pavey from Not-That-Great Britain!)

O'Boy (Irish).

Aragon wrote:

The data 800m data is from her official IAAF website, if its origin is dubious is another matter.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/russia/mariya-savinova-231384

If the mere possibility that there could exist some natural difference between OFFseason-indoor and INseason-outdoor times is totally beyond your intellectual capabilities, that is more your problem than mine.

Out of curiosity, I went through my contributions and I haven't seen one pro-PED word in any of my them, so I'll restate once again my position which was clear from my first post; there is no overnight nor overyear miraculous transformation for Mariya Savinova. Whether she gained advantage from the Russian PED program or whether she should be a target of disciplinary measures with her records erased and trophies taken away are totally different issues.

Please Aragon...you're acting like some kind of pretentious self-proclaimed "expert" postulating that there can not be a *significant* performance benefit with 02-vector doping and steriods in middle-distance events with a high-responder. On Savinova, you simply can't provide any data pre-2009 of her times before she was engaged in the Russian doping program. As Montano stated in the Wash Post interview, Savinova went from 2:02 to 1:56 in a year's time, though she doesn't elaborate on the time period in question.

And btw, there are "miraculous transformations" (maybe not "overnight" Lol) with middle-distance runners who are high-responders to EPO/steriods/HGH, etc. Read the the WADA Independence Commission Report #1 (McLaren Report) on Russian 800/1500m runner Yuliya Stepanova. According to the report, Stepanova began using EPO & Turinabolan through her coach (Mokhnev) in 2007 where her 800 PB was a pedestrian 2:08.47. A year later on the high-octane program she improves to 2:03.47...a 3 second improvement! And another year later in 09, she sets a PB of 1:58.99...a jump of 5 seconds, and a total improvement of 10 seconds in approx 2 yrs! 😨

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

In the 2011 Worlds, Stepanova made the finals and ran 8th at 1:59.74, but was DQ'd as the result of her confession in the WADA investigation. So, a very low-end average elite runner making it to the finals of a World Championship. Sounds like a miraculous transformation with a high-responder to a well-structured program of PEDs.

Read the McLaren report on Savinova also. In reference to ARD recordings, there's no details on her pre-doping times but her coach stated that "they poured so much into her."

So don't be so naive, the Russian high-octane doping program was creating miraculous transformations with some of their runners...imagine that 🤔