Men's World XC Embarrassment #2

Old School wrote:

I know we're both carrying the same torch here with respect to World XC, but we do have a philosophical difference. I think the US is a successful running country...our top athletes simply refuse to subordinate themselves to be a member f a team for World XC. If our top guns went I'm confident we'd be in the top 5 at least.

Whoops! By that I meant 'successful' more specifically in terms of W-XC success, where the US lags behind its own potential, shown on the track and road.

Myquartertimeis_82, why have you accused not one, but two posters of being the same person as me? Can you not bear to think that more than one (WAY more than one) person finds you to be comically dumb?

Neither of the people you've suggested have anything to do with me.

I don't know, either, why you think I'm from America. I have not even visited very much, but I know many Americans who were disappointed by your WXC showing, and I agree with Old School that the US could have done better. Do I have to be from America to see this? Or maybe it's because I'm not from America that I'm not blind to the facts that he points out (which you don't refute; you just say LOLOLOLOL, over and over).

Yes, I am from "some other country."

Didn't we hear enough on the first thread. you've made your point, don't agree now just drop it, we've heard enough.

Simple solution guy: DON'T READ IT.

Go USA & Elites On the Board: Contrary to your statements...I've demonstrated that I know a great deal about what is going on in the elite racing community. Just see my posts and those of others like me...there is a great deal of talk about this topic on those LSD days. Specifically for Go USA on not being in tune on what elite athletes are doing -- they're not doing the right thing. They're not taking every advantage to compete against international competition in THE TOUGHEST race in the world...for their country no less. Their priorities are warped. Don't start buckling on me...don't join the rest of these "I'm OK, Your OK, Everybody gets a T-shirt & Trophy" posters. Meb/Broe team players on 01, 02, 03....where were they in 04 and 05 when they had "come of age." Where are they in their prime? At some b.s. Race for the Cure that's where. For "Elites on the Board"...you weren't on the team. If you were then you'd admit that our nation could do better...not this "Aw shucks, I'm just trying to get a little better every day b.s. & constructive critics like me are the problem."

Mountain Dew/NJHS: You have taking the PollyAnna award away from "Backing Broe." Admit it...you are closet distance runner campers...where Broe was some guest speaker & sounded really cool. You must have watched "5000 Meters" where instead of observing our runners going for a medal....we now observe them just trying to get an A-standard to go to the Olympics. Is that the acceptable status quo? Interesting to note that none of them ran on the World XC Team.

The Coach Who Cares: recommend you change your handle to "The Coach Who Makes Excuses." Hey Coach....isn't it interesting to note that in H.S. & college it was SOP that our middle & long distance runners participate in Cross Country. All of a sudden, when their out on their own, they don't think they need either X-C, a team, or most anything else that had helped make them successful before.

For All: I will outline the Victory Campaign Plan in the next two days. It will answer, "How Do We Fix USA's World XC Team Problem?" Trust me...it won't endorse Pete Julian's plan to host the trials in Boulder which gives an unfair advantage to those at altitude. Simply another way that the Boulder Bitches are trying to hijack the selection process.

It will be "Old School" like you read about!!!!!

So we've heard....again...and ...again.

Hey Old School stick a fork in it. Elites have to know when to choose their battles and focus on the big meets that will help them improve. If you knew anything about running and racing you would know that you CAN'T RACE THEM ALL.

You called Broe and Meb for not being team players, they have shown that time and time again. According to your definition - a team player is someone who runs US cross year in and year out. So when World Cross goes long course only, there will only be 9 team players that exist in the US? Give me a break. Oh and btw if you know so much about running then you would know that Meb could not have done cross in 04 because the marathon trials were the same weekend and Broe was just starting to come back from his injury/surgery that winter. Great running knowledge their Old School!!!! (sarcasm)

Listen you say have demonstrated knowledge, but where exactly. I went back and read the thread and basically you just rattled off some names from the 80s that had run cross at some time or another, but really didn't run it around the time that they were setting their PR's. ????

I think you are missing the point that people on this thread and numbers dude was trying to make - that yes we would love to have a better world cross team but we have to understand that people prioritize and may not field the best team every year. You make it sound like doing World Cross is going to change everything but have yet to make some compelling examples of what this will change or how much. Even in years (and these are examples you showed in the other thread) where we did have elites did it make a huge impact on the state of US distance running? But in the end the priority is running fast at the World champs track and Olympics, those are the top 2 meets in anyone's career. You have to do what is right for you. If that means not participating in World Cross _every now and then_ so be it.

Old School... suppose we are now convinced and want nothing more than to see you as the new head of LDR or USATF... how can we vote for you if we don't know your name?

Dude switch your handle to something else. You are disparaging the movie Old School with your ranting. I love that movie! Don't make me hate it!

I dont have the time (or patience) to read the entire thread but i'll make the following comment. The habit of some distance runner not turning out for the World XC is NOT an american problem, it is a problem generally. Consider the following

1/ The GB team was without Paula & Jon Brown. Undisputably the no.1's on each team.

2/France have never coaxed Baala into running the WX and were without most of their best runners. Benoit Z didnt show.

3/Ireland had to do without Mark Carroll (again) and also without previous double winner Sonia O Sullivan.

4/Was there an uproar in Kenya because Tergat decided to hang up his xc spikes? Not likely. Why didnt Korir or Rutto run the trials?

5/ Italy was without Olympic champ Baldini and DiCecco ran an impressive 2'08 the week before the WXC. Why didnt he run the WXC and then London?

6/Spain normally do well getting their A team out but were still without Martinez, Reyes & Roncero this yr.

7/Japan never get their hoardes of 2'08 guys to run cross. Too many to mention.

Very few countries manage to get their dream team out. The exceptions here are Ethiopia (although no Abera/Adera), Qatar, Tanzania (no Yuda), Eritrea & Uganda.

Bottom Line: US are 'normal' and dont IMO suffer more or less than the average country.

* Excellent Point - I stand corrected on Meb/Broe for the 2004 Trials given the OT Marathon Trials & Injuries. However, I stand by my point that they never intended to represent their country in 2005 & that they are not showing the necessary leadership that we need. For 2004, Eduardo Torres & Alan Webb are on my "Broe List" for qualifying and then gaffing their country. I also think Robert Gary should have doubled just like Jorge should have this year -- at least he was there. Collectively, if we cared about our national pride, we would have recognized the inevitable marathon scheduling conflict & really rallied to fill the gap in 2004. Where was Fam, Mike Donnelly, Slattery? Where were our Stember-Sage-Lunn crew...you know, our our Non-A Time/Non XC Miler Club...the guys who run tactical all the time because they don't have the strength to go for it on all 4 laps? Where was Jonathon Riley to pick-up the slack? I give Dan Lincoln a bye since he was busy helping his TEAM...Arkansas win national championships. In fact we did pretty damn good in the 4K (7th Place), but are we going to accept that Canada kicked our ass by 30-some odd points?

You wan an example of "Old School" leadership: Salazar's efforts in assembling a badass Track 10K at Hayward in his prime so that Americans could go for fast times...HERE IN AMERICA...not in Europe. He personally recruited -- even the people he knew that could potentially beat him. Granted it wasn't a team thing, but its that type of thinking that we need to improve where we place. Our athletes are more interested in not showing their cards...like the whole world is watching or something.

* I'm tone deaf to the "What's right for me as an individual..." argument. I'm arguing that #1 I'm not asking the athletes to even peak (although I think they should) for World XC...I'm asking for the lowest common denominator -- particiaption -- on their bad days there still good. #2 Unlike most, I view XC as first a Team Sport. #3 I don't accept that we can't do better.

* Go USA: Not one time have I argued that doing World XC is the panacea for improvign USA LDR! There is no silver bullet...your right, we have to prioritize. I argue we focus on World XC as a team and obviously Track in the summer. When we have Tim Broe, Abdi, Fam, Culpeper running these b.s. road races during the same period of World XC --- these are examples of poor priorities.

* On athletes running World XC Year in and Out. Yes your exactly right. The World XC Championships should be that one time a year where the LDR comes together to put its best face forward as a TEAM each year. I never said that our best have to compete in each IAAF championship event each time...check the thread. USATF sponsors all these b.s. USA Road Races...fine, I think they're B.S...like Liquori said...its rock'n'roll compared Carnegie Hall (international competition). Have I raged on the hypocrisy of many of our guys focusing on the Grand Prix, but gaffing the opportunity to come together as a TEAM for the World 1/2, Eikeden, etc....NO...but I could. There is a place for Road Races in my Campaign to Victory that you'll see soon.

Excellent Post!

We're not the only nations failing to come together as a TEAM for World XC and/or dodging the Africans. My "Campaign to Victory" will address this topic -- forming a "coalition of the willing" (minus France) to challenge the African continent. GB, Ireland, France, all used to be Old School -- and they were ultimately pretty darn competitive in the summer. You've definitely identified a trend in non-African countires!! Japan's making a national mistake as well...they're to tied up in Eikedens & Relays...result of their corporate team structure.

Spain: I think they ran well...knocked off two African countries (Rwanda & Tanzania) in the long course and Eritea in the short course.

Portugal: Took out Rwanda in the Long Course

Italy: Even w/o Baldini, took out Tanzania.

Which African country did America take out? Zero!

Wannabe: Kenya can afford to not have Tergat. Korrir, and Rutto & be competitive.

BJP:

I will "Out" myself in due time. Who do you think I am? There's plenty of chatter about who Old School is amongst the elite runners reading this site. They understand I have a legitimate point and are doing the necessary self-reflection...watch what happens in 2006. We will be a Top 10 TEAM again. As the Chairman of the LDR....I'll have us in the top 5 by 2008. More later when I publish the "Campaign to Victory" manifesto.

Old School wrote:

BJP:

I will "Out" myself in due time. Who do you think I am? There's plenty of chatter about who Old School is amongst the elite runners reading this site. They understand I have a legitimate point and are doing the necessary self-reflection...watch what happens in 2006. We will be a Top 10 TEAM again. As the Chairman of the LDR....I'll have us in the top 5 by 2008. More later when I publish the "Campaign to Victory" manifesto.

Dude, if you're going to run for LDR you need to get your facts straight on the state of things in this country and who is who in running and how people train. People have been correcting you all over the place (and you have to admit that). If you don't have this basic knowledge how do you expect to be a LDR?

Ok so you're running for LDR, I don't know if you are making this up to try and dress up your losing argument or if you really are after waking up after glancing at this year's 2005 xc results. Where were you in the other years? when other guys didn't double in cross or decline their spot. you talking crap now is a little sketchy.

all i know about you is that you don't like boulder. i don't see why you can't post experience and still be anonymous if you really had any ie. coached a 33:00 womens 10k etc. i think you would have answered this already if you were really involved and in the know, thus i have a hard time believing you bring anything to the table except for recycled ideas and a longing for yesteryear when the state of the world distance running was a hell of a lot different than it is now.

Go USA:

We can't get there (Victory) from here (13th Place), by reinforcing failure with the same practices today, yesterday, and in the future. I have provided golden nuggets of knowledge for a vision of our future. The "Campaign to Victory" will list these details comprehensively.

Do you work for a Union in your day job? Your full of excuses about how nothing can change & why the employee is always right. All you do is play the Union rep...you take a "We're a Victim" approach.

How did I know Meb didn't want to run World XC?

He wasn't at the trials...simple. When we as a community begin to demand the best team possible, then the elites will explain their absence. I'm results oriented..at least Dan Browne showed remorse by announcing that he was disappointed he couldn't participate in World XC because of his leg. Note my previous posts where I slammed him, but now have repented -- I'm not to proud their Union Boss.

What is the definition of a TEAM? Its obvious from your statements that the "Campaing to Victory" manifesto will have to define this term to the Generation Me audience. I promise many examples of how our elite athletes can take a leadership role. I already gave you one example of what Salazar did, but you respond with a laundry list of track meets that administrators organize. Salazar called for a "All Comers"...come as you are...the only thing I'll guarantee you is a fast pace. That's leadership! Its obvious that I'll have to break it down Barney style in my manifesto.

Miler Discussion: To bad you won't engage in the discussion. Our milers need to look at what Old School milers did to be successful -- part of that recipe was cross country. All of a sudden they graduate from college and don't think they need to do it...and they wonder why their not making as much progress?

Jonathon Riley - C'mon..one of our best 5K/3K guys "concentrates" on indoors when there's not even a World Championship this year. He's dodging the competition just like Culpepper is by doing Jacksonville & Boston instead of World XC & London. Typical post-Stanford athlete -- do everything different than what worked for 4 straight years.

More later in my "Campaign to Victory" manifesto.....

what get club runners to run world xc? yeah that won't reinforce failure or lack of leadership.

Actually I'm a coach with many years experience. I am putting that out in the open right now. I'm just a guy who wants to see athletes improve no matter what their ability, but I also recognize that there are different paths to success. But I think the singleminded nature with which you go about promoting the xc champs as a priority would distract athletes from the main priority - track. that is a truth. you still haven't shown a direct correlation between the need for world cross success equating track success. in some athletes it will be true, no doubt, but not for all, which is what you seem to be advocating.

Ok you keep contradicting yourself on this - MEb made his intention clear he was doing London - which below you say is a competitive race and worthy of skipping cross for. Get your argument straight. And just because there wasn't a press release doesn't mean he didn't intend on running. All he ever said was that he was doing London. Did you talk to him and ask him in January if he wanted to run world cross?

Me too, but your priorities are in the wrong place. The overfocus on xc will shortchange people's preparation for track. Things are different than in the 70s. It's a different level of competition and differnet level of prepartion. I know this for a fact. As a result, methods of training have to change accordingly.

And once again you fail to address my point that you are blowing up this 2005 world cross instance. Most years in the past we have fielded good teams - you have said this yourself - this shows that our elites DO have a commitment.

add that to the list of athletes you didn't know anything about. because you're out of touch...

Why don't you just define it now? Chances are I'm a ton older than you so don't go off on this generation me crap. I have given a couple ways you can define it. Explain it, if you can.

So let me get this straight, you want to pawn off responsibility of track meets and other administrative things to athletes who already have to focus on their training and support? Why??? Sure, just burden them some more.

Listen explain to me the difference between a track meet constructed by track fans and coaches for elite people and all-comers that is essentially free vs. a track meet constructed by an athlete for elite people and all-comers that is essentially free. There is none is there? Who cares who makes the meet as long as there are opportunities. My point is there are very good opportunities and they have been raising the standard of competition in this country the last 5 years.

wow like this hasn't been going on before? Meets like you describe have been going on - hansons, minnesota classic, owens meet in ohio, stanford/california meets - all great opportunities. i think you need to figure out what leadership means. because this sure ain't a good example.

i won't engage in it because i saw what happened i nthe last thread, you ignored some very obvious facts. let me ask you this - how come the rest of the world's milers aren't doing cross and making progress? also, you wouldnt think that guys like webb, gruber, myers, jeffersons etc etc are making progress? you're insane. the point is this abstract view that doing this one race is going to change everything is pretty pointless

but there is a WC in track. he wants to focus on that. and if i remember correctly he's one of two guys last year who did get the A-standard.

how is competing against 2:07-08 marathoners dodging competition???

i think riley knows what he's doing - he did run sub 13:22 last year didn't he???

whatever. you bring up the same points that were defeated in past threads. why don't you just reveal yourself and get it over with.

Old School wrote:

The Coach Who Cares: recommend you change your handle to "The Coach Who Makes Excuses." Hey Coach....isn't it interesting to note that in H.S. & college it was SOP that our middle & long distance runners participate in Cross Country. All of a sudden, when their out on their own, they don't think they need either X-C, a team, or most anything else that had helped make them successful before.

Seems to me that most of these guys, and since the focus seems to be on Broe, ran XC.

Old School wrote:

BJP:

I will "Out" myself in due time. Who do you think I am? There's plenty of chatter about who Old School is amongst the elite runners reading this site.

Ok goofball.

Old School wrote:

Miler Discussion: To bad you won't engage in the discussion. Our milers need to look at what Old School milers did to be successful -- part of that recipe was cross country. All of a sudden they graduate from college and don't think they need to do it...and they wonder why their not making as much progress?

How many World XC Champs did Scott, Maree and Spivey compete in?