Importance of basic speed in distance running

There are many of coaches that do, and many many more others who don't. Based on observation and talking with HS coaches in the area I live (which is, generally, often a little above average for the US), I would estimate that somewhere close to 20% of HS coaches include some kind of emphasis on building raw speed rather than just strides and what many think of as "speed stuff" (e.g. 150m+ workouts). For the US as a whole, that estimate is probably pretty generous. That number will be MUCH less for MS (aged 12-14) coaches.

*&HUadfp9iu24t4-0 wrote:

The OP sets up a straw man that doesn't really exist.

Over the last 10 years through several parts of youth and HS track and XC, my kid's coaches have done tons of "speed" stuff. They pretty much have to. The vast majority of kids today just don't have the attention span to run for even 20 minutes without getting "bored" and wanting to switch sports.

It seems that you were wrong after all;

From another thread:

"I'm a senior in high school and I run the 800 in 2:27 and the 1600 in 5:49. I'm also doing xcountry.

Saturday: Fartleks for 40 minutes

Sunday: rest or easy jog

Monday: 6 mile run at 70 percent 5k pace

Tuesday: 30 minute easy

Wednesday: Tempo run for 20 minutes

Thursday: rest or easy jog

Friday: 4×400 around mile pace

Plus Monday through Friday weight training."

This is exactly what I´ve been talking about on this thread. Low mileage with some little workouts, including the mile pace reps, and zero anaerobic capacity (alactic-glycolytic) development sessions. Very little easy basic mileage, which is crucial for aerobic capacity development.

Hi U.N.O:

I know you like Olbrecht and mentioned him in this thread.

I know running and swimming are different, but if you haven't seen these pages, you might find them interesting:

http://www.orca.ee/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Treeningtsoonid.pdf

and

http://www.lactate.com/swimming/swtstres.htm

In the first link, in the pictures under the big cone, are the graphs of how each of Olbrecht's four types of training (AEC, AEP, ANP, ANC) affect the lactate curve. In the second link, he doesn't make a distinction between changes in aerobic power and changes in anaerobic power, just referring to "applied power".

In the second link, I find the eight graphs of changes in parameters for the same 200m swimmer (and how the race times changed as a result) fascinating.

I agree that speed development is important for younger runners and serious athletes and should generally be stressed more among these groups. However, you might be surprised at how many 15-17 min 5kers are able to do just fine without anything more than strides (if they're lucky). I realize these are pedestrian times in the grand scheme of things, but realistically that's where most runners end up. Most weekend warriors are better off focusing on tempos and 3k-8k pace workouts.

Wasn't the shift of emphasis towards more speed, away from high mileage endurance, the primary cause of the Western failure of the 1990's, causing all Western nations to regress compared to their own heyday of the 70's and 80's?

In America, Jack Daniel's is a "popular" approach with wide influence. In addition to easy runs, long runs ("E-pace"), aerobic threshold training ("M-pace"), aerobic capacity (VO2max) interval training ("I-pace"), his plans include "R-paced" intervals to provide the kind anaerobic training you are looking for.

McMillan training makes a different between speed training (aerobic intervals, short recovery) with sprint training (anaerobic intervals, long recovery) designed to improve form, and efficiency.

Even Lydiard, often misunderstood as an aerobic-only, high mileage coach, used a "track training" phase, ranging from 3-6 weeks, for ALL his athletes, to develop "anaerobic" speed, before the racing season.

I agree that this basic speed development is important for the many reasons you say, but, is it really as neglected as you fear? It seems to me the danger is the opposite, that this kind of basic speed is often over-emphasized, especially by youths normally too impatient to stick to the plan and run slower during training designed to build aerobic fitness, leading to premature peaks, burnout, and injury.

Hello and thanks for the links - haven´t seen those before. I have the Olbrecht´s book somewhere, but when moved it seems to be disappeared. It´s the main source behind my training philosophy, to get the anaerobic and aerobic capacities in balance remembering the main event´s demands.

rekrunner, you always seem to ignore and missunderstood what I wrote, is it on purpose or what, I don´t know.

I haven´t suggested to shift the emphasis towards more speed AND LOWER MILEAGE. In my post where I criticized the program of some HS MD runner I clearly say that easy basic mileage is crucial for aerobic capacity development:

"This is exactly what I´ve been talking about on this thread. Low mileage with some little workouts, including the mile pace reps, and zero anaerobic capacity (alactic-glycolytic) development sessions. Very little easy basic mileage, which is crucial for aerobic capacity development."

In addition, like I wrote that focusing ONLY to aerobic capacity development, Olbrecht believes that you can end up being overtrained more easily, IT MEANS that WITH BETTER ANAEROBIC CAPACITY you can actually TRAIN MORE, but there´s at least no need to LOWER the mileage like you falsely assumed. I repeat;

"Stride efficiency is only a one thing behind importance of SPEED training, the other is the anaerobic capacity. Without a good CAPACITY you cannot build a good POWER. How good your anaerobic capacity has to be? If you´re a marathoner it´s not that important of course, but there are opinions (Olbrecht) that focusing only to aerobic capacity development you can end up being overtrained more easily."

Daniel´s R pace sessions isn´t at all what I´m looking for. Daniel´s R pace is right at the pace (around mile pace) which I criticized;

"what I have seen in the Letsrun.com forum, often the first thing what I see in someone´s training plan/program is the total (or almost) lack of the basic speed work. There can be the strides almost every day, and/or "speed work" which is done at 800-mile paces, but the frequent speed work in the base phase done SHORT and FAST (from ~50 to 150/200m), with long recoveries is what seems to be neglected."

Examples of speed training that I already mentioned:

1) very short accelerations (could be done on hills also), alactic

2) longer (up to 80m) sprints for maximum pace work (can be done after the accelerations)

3) 100-150 (or even some 200´s) at ~90-95% effort (anaerobic capacity) like 2-3x150+2-3x120+2-3x100m or so depending from the level of your anaerobic capacity and main event

I hope you now understand what I meant.

Silky Johnson wrote:

I agree that speed development is important for younger runners and serious athletes and should generally be stressed more among these groups. However, you might be surprised at how many 15-17 min 5kers are able to do just fine without anything more than strides (if they're lucky). I realize these are pedestrian times in the grand scheme of things, but realistically that's where most runners end up. Most weekend warriors are better off focusing on tempos and 3k-8k pace workouts.

Yes, especially the slower longer distance runners can do well without the real speed work, but by anaerobic capacity (alactic-glycolytic) training they could improve the running economy, stride efficiency, strengthen the legs, and possibly train even more than with very little anaerobic capacity, I just repeated the reasons behind it in my earlier post. Doing one little anaerobic capacity session every ~7-14th day during the base phase wouldn´t harm the important aerobic capacity work that much. And isn´t the goal of training to be more competitive in races, no matter how slow you are? If you don´t neglect completely the speed training, you will be more competitive, having a better finishing kick. Also when you get older, your speed will deteriorate very quickly if you do nothing for it. After the base phase, in some cases you can purposefully drop your anaerobic capacity if it´s too strong for the event, to reach a better aerobic power, which of course is way more important in 5k than the anaerobic power. But I would still consider to continue doing the alactic short sprints every once in a while.

No I didn't understand before. Thanks for the re-clarification and the examples.I think part of my confusion was getting lost in terminology -- I don't consider "alactic" and "anaerobic capacity" training the same thing, and thought you were talking about "anaerobic capacity" training, like Daniel's R-pace interval training.What about strength and technique drills like plyometrics and bounding? Can you see these as a partial or complete replacement for the alactic, speed training you find missing? In an old Lydiard document, he uses these kind of drills, coupled with entering athletes in real sprint races: "I make all my runners sprint in sprint races at a club level.... Speed development is important to marathon runners as well as track runners. So every week, 52 weeks a year, runners should be doing something about their speed, conditioning for it, working on technique, and generally working on their speed." "(It should be noted here that Lydiard is not talking about "speed" developed by anaerobic repetitions. "Pure sprinting speed" can be developed by technique drills and/or hill exercises advocated by Lydiard in various forms.)"Sounds like the same thing you are saying (even if the approach is different).

U.N.O. wrote:

rekrunner, you always seem to ignore and missunderstood what I wrote, is it on purpose or what, I don´t know.

...

I hope you now understand what I meant.

rekrunner wrote:

What about strength and technique drills like plyometrics and bounding? Can you see these as a partial or complete replacement for the alactic, speed training you find missing?

Okay. Yes, the same terminology can have a different meaning depending of the person.

The short (

And where is the rest of my post..?! I tried to copy it just in case if something goes wrong before posted it, but it seems that I CUT a large part of it away. Don´t have time and discipline to re-write it now.

Don't try to use a pesky "less than" sign, or the message will be short.

Shortly back to your post.

So the short sprints (alactic) are great for acceleration and running spesific power, bounding is less spesific. But I´ve used both in the same session but the emphasis is on sprints. I almost always did a set of short sprints on hills and a second set on flat ground. If you replace the sprints by bounding for some reason, focus on horizontal movement rather than vertical, aim to jump longer, not higher. Like I said the plyos are great especially when young to reach a strong, skillful body, when training is less spesific.

Like said the alactic sprints can be combined with the longer "anaerobic sprints", the anaerobic capacity work in my terminology, lasting from ~15 to 30 seconds. Or do them separately, or use only the short or longer ones, it depends. This morning I did a session of 1k wu + 1k of drills + 3x60m accelerations on a slight hill followed by anaerobic capacity sprints, the end done on a slight hill; 150m (22,2s) + 120m (18s) + 100m (15,1s) with 4min walking to start recovery, and 1,5k cd. The session took only 40 minutes including the wu and cd, and could have easily to do endurance work after the sprints, like sub-LT running, even some 800-mile pace reps or just an easy long cool down. Planning to do some running in the afternoon, if inspired.

The anaerobic sprints I did took only less than 10minutes and was 370m altogether, and those made me breath hard a long time during my cooling down. I got a nice HGH (human growth hormone) release from the sprints. The volume of sprint work of course depends, I´ve done 3x150-3x120-3x100 when trained for 800m but I´m older now and my anaerobic capacity is lower, and training for...I don´t know. So this doesn´t take away from your mileage, but could be a small, benefiting addition on your training program. But I repeat; if you don´t have the endurance, you won´t be able to use your speed which you´ve created. And to my point of the thread, if you never do this kind of sprint work (only the "speed work" at 800-mile pace), and are hoping to be at your best especially at middle distances, you won´t be. Unless maybe if your anaerobic capacity is naturally too high for the event, like in the case of Peter Snell was, you could then concentrate on the alactic-maximum speed sprints with the endurance work. Even then, once you get older, and aim still be as or near as fast as before, and don´t want to move up on distance, you have to modify your training and start doing the real anaerobic capacity work.

Training of Vebjoern Rodal included the kind of top speed and anaerobic capacity work which I´ve been talking about (I copied his "anaerobic sprint" workout in my own "career");

"Rodal`s training is very alround it is meant to train all the different aspects which can make you a sub 1.40/800m runner. That was Rodals ultimate goal: be the first to run 800m under 100 sec (1.40)

This is how the main structure look like in ex 1994 with not so much seasonal variation, but focus on all abilities all year to have continuity from year to year

Monday

1)30 min jog and flexibility

2)Aerobic intervals distances from 200 to 2000 meters

Thursday

1)Easy long run

2)Springy (see below)

Wednesday

1)Jog drills and stretch

2)Intervals distances from 100 to 1000 metres

Thirsday

1)Easy long run

2)Weights (see below)

Friday

1)Top speed (sprints 60-150m)

Saturday

1)1h 30 min Aerobic longrun (after 1 january it become fast logrun or interval)

Sunday

1)Endurance Strength stomach, back, hip, back side (after 1 jan it becomes reoccupation and flexibility)

Strength training

From 1st October to 1st January

2 days of weight training a week (one circle and one weights)

Weights:

Knee bend 12-18 x 50k (max)

Lunge 15-20 x 30k (max)

Rising 8-12 x 30k (max)

Hamstring 20-40 x Easy load apparatuses

Hips 20-25 x Easy load apparatuses

Buttocks hip backside (Hip get most load) 20-25 x 20-25k

Circle training: Hard traditional

1st January to 15th Mai

Weights once a week

More specific exercises,

More fast, longer break

Max effort every 3rd week. Half knee bends down to 90• and max up (Growing stronger in time 4-5 (series) x3-5 (reps) 120-160kg ) This is so though that next days sprint work be some easier every 3rd week

15th Mai to 15th September

Once every 9th day

Specific exercises

Maintenance

Lighter weights

Important notes

See that strength is day before sprint this to get right tension in muscles so sprint training can be max fast. But he never do the type max strength before sprint because that increases strain danger.

Springy training

From 1st October to 1st January

30 min basketball warm up

Endurance running drills/ tecninques 6-8x80m

Sprint, steps, limp, 2 legged jumps in stairs 6 floors

Step series 3-5 80m

Some workouts much drill some much stairs variation evry second weekend

Every second workouts sit up and back

1st January to 15th Mai

4-6 x 100m drill drills

5-6 x 100m Spprunglauf

2-3 x 60-80m hink

2 x 100m Indian jumps (chages of foot)

1-2 x 60m sprint sprunglauf

15th Mai to 15th September

Jog drill and sprint with gradual speed increase

3-4 x 60m sprunglauf

2-3 x 40 m Easy limp on toes

2 x 60 m long indian jumps

2 x 60m sprintsprunglauf fast

Notes

Vebjørn do 280 jumps in an easy week upto 550 in a hard week

Rodal can jump 15.30 in still standing 5 step jump

Because he always do strength and springy training all year round he do not have do start on zero again but can develop into new levels every year He do not loose his capacity it always grow a bit stronger. (Atleast that was the theory)

The reason Why team Rodal put so much focus on strength and springy is following:

Make better tecnique through better balance, avoid rotasions and make better joint sense

Strength because you need more power to drive step forward

Better ankle strength to give som exstra “snert” (more explosive ankles)

Rodal himself told that speed was the secret for his success, he was a modest 100m runner but compted the distance often because he belived to train also your weakness.

Vebjorn tells us that without a strong 200m speed you cannot become an international runner.

At young age when 18-19 years much of the focus was strength and springy not endurance from young age witch is popular today.

Example week from basic training from November-March

Monday

1) 30min aerobe run

2) long intervals aerob ex 10x400+2x200

Thursday

1)30min aerobe run

2)Springy (like described earlier)

Wednesday

1) 30min aerobe run

2) Anarobic quality ex 3x600m, rest 10-12min

Thirsday

1) Cirkel strength (traditional exercices)

2) Long intervals aerob like Monday

Friday

1) Rest

2) Anaerobic sprint 3x150m + 3x120m + 3x100m, rest 3-5min

Saturday

1) Strength work (like described earlier)

2) Rest

Sunday

1) Long run 45-60min in spring an 2houres in autumn.

2) Rest

Notes

The morning run of 30min is done like this 10 fast 10 slow 10 fast.

You see it is very much quality year round evry element is always present

After 1996 Rodal never ran near his 1.42,58 again he tried a more aerobic model to come closer to his target of sub 1.40 this was not a success and he never ran under 1.44 again. He and coach Huseby admitted the mistake, but now serious injury happens and Rodal wass never the same again."

Something really good points here.

About 2 weeks ago my youtube screen on this tablet had a link to Lydiard in Scotland and another to an old archive interview of Peter Snell. Anyhow Snell said he 100 miles per week but Lydiard said his athletes did work on their speed all year round. In simple terms Lydiard worked out that long runs had 2 benefits, greater blood volume per stroke and better strength to do higher amounts of reps.

Now I'm a mid 30s athlete (who hadn't raced in 10 years), and had been trying to get in race shape again over the last two years but I keep on getting injured because, a) I wasn't doing enough milage, b) poor technique (over striding affecting my hamstring), c) not doing a proper hill phase, d) simply I'm older.

Anyhow whilst my hamstring was sore and I could still do 35 miles per week, I read (from Clyde Hart) that his athletes would do a drill when injured to keep fit, they tried to run as many steps in 10m, plus I incorporated in frog jumps (squat thrust hops) and step ups to exhaustion (plus later I added a little bit of barefoot running of say 200m and hurtling practice). I found this to be so effective I have permanently incorporated it in.

I also noticed that during the base phase doing 4-6 x 80m reps after say a 6 mile run would bring me to a new level of aerobic fitness/speed about 3 days later. But any more (like 12 x 150m) and it interferes with training for next couple of days (stiff achilles and tight hamstrings).

So in short you can improve your speed without doing speed. Working on form and removing any inefficiencies may be more important for most runners.

Just to make it clear, I haven´t suggested to shift the emphasis towards more speed AND lower mileage, as I thoroughly corrected in my post above.

The hill sprints are more gentle to the hamstrings, and very effective for running form. I always do some dynamic drills before the sprints too. At first you should be cautious on volume and intensity of the sprints, and work on strengthening your body, especially the glutes and hamstrings. A good strength exercise you might benefit;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-CrEi0ymMg&index=1&list=FLvZsbLDKHbLt03Gby1gt7ww

Why Speed Matters for Marathoners

A little more than a month before running her PR in Rotterdam, Magdalena Lewy Boulet did the track workout described here: 3 miles worth of 200m and 400m intervals run at roughly 4:30 mile pace. In the marathon, her goal was to break 2:30, which required her to run only about 5:45 per mile for the 26.2-mile race. Such an emphasis on speed might be surprising to beginning marathoners, or even elites who focus exclusively on the more traditional elements of marathon preparation such as longer intervals at threshold pace, tempo runs, and long runs. But speed development is a staple for Lewy Boulet and her coach, Jack Daniels.

"It's clear that any longer distance event can maximally be run at some fraction of the speed of a shorter race," Daniels says. "The extreme of that would be that a guy can't run a 2:11 marathon if he can't run a 5-minute mile."

Daniels believes in incorporating short, fast repetitions early in the marathon buildup, ideally focusing most intensely on speed development about 12 weeks prior to race day. From there, he begins shifting his athletes to longer workouts while doing just enough fast running to maintain the speed gained early on. This is opposite the more common template, which calls for longer, slower work at the beginning of marathon training and shorter, faster running as race day approaches.

"I would normally do reps early in the season and then maintain some of the reps throughout the rest of the season in conjunction with threshold runs," Daniels says. "The speed stuff is not the most important thing for a marathon, but economy is extremely important." Being able to run fast comfortably, Daniels believes, translates to running economy, or the ability to minimize effort at a given pace.

Daniels is quick to stress that each athlete is different and requires different emphases on strength and speed. Lewy Boulet, for example, has ample strength but can improve upon her top-end speed, which is why he has her work so intently on improving her leg turnover. An athlete with better natural speed might not need to do as much fast running in marathon training.

"If you look at her different race performances," Daniels says of Lewy Boulet by way of evidence, "she's probably a little lacking in the shorter races."

Daniels also coaches 2:12 marathoner Peter Gilmore, another athlete who considers working on high-end speed critical to his marathon training. Gilmore incorporates repetitions as short as 150m into his training, also using hill sprints to build power and speed.

"It's like your car, making sure your tires are full," Gilmore says of running those very short, intense workouts. "It's just a little thing, but if you don't do it, it becomes a big problem."

U.N.O. wrote:

An example of Mo Farah based on his real and assumed pb´s:

100: 11,67-12,04 assuming 2,5-3 secs difference vs assumed 400m pace

400: 49,68-50,68 assuming 5-6 secs difference vs 1500 pace

800: 1:48,69 (54,34 400m pace) From 2003, isn´t in line with the 1500

1500: 3:28,81 (55,68 400m pace, +1,34sec)

3000: 7:32 (60,3 400m pace, +4,6sec) Could be faster based on 1500/5k

5000: 12:53 (61,8 400m pace, +1,5sec)

10 000: 26:46 (64,2 400m pace, +2,4 sec)

“I shouldn’t give away my tactics but I run 49 sec for 400m in training. That is the type of training I have to do to be the best in the world. Everything I do is practised in training. That is the reality. There is no other way to win."

The story doesn´t tell is that 49 flat from the blocks, but the 100m estimation can´t be far away.

I realised that there´s a lot in SOM-training that I believe, HARD drop-the-BS-endurance work, but also the neuromuscular-anaerobic speed work during the base building:

"A: Once a week meet for a tempo run on the track of four to six miles. The other workout is four to six by 1200m to 2000m with one lap jog, OR 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m with FULL RECOVERY - that's a really slow jog. Walk if you have to. You determine what you want to do; these are just recommendations.

Q: What about those 200s? Why are we doing speed work now?

A: The only way to run fast is to, well, run fast. The time to start is now. Let's say the group is running 200s. Just go out and run them. FULL RECOVERY.

The whole point is to train the neuromuscular system, to concentrate on the mechanics of running - you know it: forward lean, arm

carriage, knees up and out, heels clipping your butt, stride length and turnover.

I've always been amazed at the number of runners that think that they can "get speed" during the last three weeks of the season. It doesn't work that way."

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/rtp3.htm