best modern era US 800 runners are ALL ENDURANCE BASED

HardLoper wrote:

Aerobic Neglect wrote:

800/1500 double more common at all levels than 400/800.

This... it's an endurance event. Guys like Brazier and Loxsom can run decent 4x4 splits but they are really not that fast at the open 400.

Idiotic post by Aerobic Neglect.

Idiotic response by HardLoper.

Is Rudisha better in the 400 or the 1500?

How are Brazier and Loxsom in the 1500?

HurdleMVP wrote:

I'd argue that endurance guys are often able to be more consistent over rounds because coming from an endurance background, it's easier to run for place rather than time--speed guys run best going out hard and dying as little as possible, but will often have a harder time closing well in slower races (and are thus forced either to take it out hard, spending more energy on the rounds than the guys that can sit and kick off a 54/51 1:45, or risk getting beaten if they close poorly in a slower race).

Consider that the two most speed-oriented guys in the 800 final in Rio, Rudisha and Bosse, had led and won their heat every previous round rather than trying to fight for place in a slower race, whereas Makhloufi and Murphy both sat and kicked in the earlier rounds.

Great post.

Guys like Solomon, Rudisha, Brazier...they are all basically long sprinters. The first 200 will always be the fastest, the next 200 slower and so on. Even in ideal pacing for them, they are made to positive split, usually significantly (3s). If they need a 1:44 in rounds, they basically need to open in 50-51. Running that first lap fast and easy is their advantage, and going out in 54 isn't suddenly going to make a long sprinter have a kick on the second lap. They will ONLY slow down so need to start fast.

More endurance-based runners, like Mahkloufi, Symmonds, etc, can't exactly through down a 50-second lap with the same ease, but in a round they can open in 52-53 and run guys down, 52/52 or even a negative split.

This is less taxing, both physically and mentally, since coming from behind you can see what you need to do advance, and don't need to do more. For the speed guys whose only move is to get out fast and hold on, they NEED to roll that fast first lap.

So "fitness for rounds" in the 800 is a more complicated thing than in the 100/200/400, since 800 runners come to the event with such different backgrounds.

Aerobic Neglect wrote:

The letter why wrote:

You're right! Except for Berian, Sowinski, Solomon, KD, Johnson.

Olympic and World Medalists???

**crickets**

That's what I thought.

800/1500 double more common at all levels than 400/800.

Centro ran his Olympic 1500- his last 400 was at 800m WR pace!! He basically ran 1/2 the 800 WR in a 1500!

Berian and Sowinski are World Medalist.

Solomon is the 2nd fastest American at 800M

Be careful making grand conclusions based largely on Murphy medaling. Two physiologist: Owen Anderson, PhD and David Martin, PhD (Martin worked with Sebastian Coe) stated the strongest predictor of 800 metres success is 400 metres PB. There are roughly 130 sub-1:44 800 metres men. Their 1500 metres PB range from roughly 3:26 to 3:52. Most sub-1:44 800 metres men are not or were not 800/1500 men.

In US, we don't have many solid 1500 metres runners. There are 104 men who have raced sub-3:32 1500 metres according to IAAF. Only seven men born in US have raced sub-3:32. There are 77 sub-44.50 400 metres men according to IAAF. Most are US citizens.

In US, we have more 45.50 to 47 400 metres runners than any country in the world. Men who race 400 metres in that range will never make our Olympic team as 400 metres runners. Asking men in that range to run college XC will scare many of them away from 800 metres. Our 45.50 to 47 400 metres runners are our national hidden treasures; potentially great 800 metres men. Obviously, not all 45.50 to 47 400 metres men will be sub-1:44 800 metres men. I don't want to scare them off with this 800/1500 talk.

Yes. I thought Brandon Johnson put this question to bed, and then Boris Berian backed the findings. US 400m runners need to try the 800. Aerobic endurance will be important. But the US has a bevy of world-class sprint talent who will never make the world stage in the sprints.

Berian was born, raised, lives, and trains at altitude. He ran at distance powerhouse Adam's state. He is coached by BMart's distance coach husband.

Pretty sure he's distance oriented. His training certainly isn't neglecting the Aerobic aspect.

Solomon always gets mentioned in these sprint trained discussions. He hasn't done anything noteworthy internationally accept run a fast time trial.

Another post brings up the US 400m depth and lack of depth at 1500. Our 1500 OLY Champ says he trained like a 5000 runner. Coincidence?

Our 400 depth and lack of 800 success shows the overimportance coaches place on speed work.

A guy running 46 can't run 50/50. Is that because of not enough speed work or lack of AEROBIC TRAINING?

Helpful Advise wrote:

Berian was born, raised, lives, and trains at altitude. He ran at distance powerhouse Adam's state. He is coached by BMart's distance coach husband.

Pretty sure he's distance oriented. His training certainly isn't neglecting the Aerobic aspect.

Solomon always gets mentioned in these sprint trained discussions. He hasn't done anything noteworthy internationally accept run a fast time trial.

Another post brings up the US 400m depth and lack of depth at 1500. Our 1500 OLY Champ says he trained like a 5000 runner. Coincidence?

Our 400 depth and lack of 800 success shows the overimportance coaches place on speed work.

A guy running 46 can't run 50/50. Is that because of not enough speed work or lack of AEROBIC TRAINING?

Berian is not a distance oriented half-miler. No elite 800 guy is really lacking in the aerobic aspect (you have to have phenomenal aerobic conditioning to run sub 1:44), but you can certainly be stronger over the 200/400 than the 1500--and Berian is a sub 46 open 400 runner.

Solomon placed 4th in the most competitive 800m final ever run. I really don't think people are giving him enough credit for that. The US 800 has also been developing very well the last five or six years--we've placed 2 guys in the 800 final in every major global championship from London onward and have 2 international medals (3 if you count world indoors).

I'd hesitantly say that speed could absolutely be the limiting factor stopping an 800 guy with 46s quarter speed from going, say, 50/52. Generally optimal 800 splits will involve a first lap that's ~91% of 400 PR (so ~50.4 for this hypothetical runner. Stronger endurance will, assuming optimal splits, give a slightly better differential on the second lap (+2.5s rather than +3s) but in an optimally split race, the returns from stronger endurance are asymptotic, and this hypothetical runner might hit their peak by improving their 400 to 45.5 and going 49.5/53 (rather than working on endurance and going 50.4/52.5). On the flip side, while working on speed would lead to overall faster times and a better time trialer, working on endurance would probably lead to a better racer.

I think what the US 400 success and (comparative) lack of 800 success shows is that not enough 45.5 - 47 dudes are willing to try moving up. In order to convert 46s speed into a ~1:44, you need to put in a sizable amount of endurance training--as I said, no 800 elite has poor aerobic conditioning, some are just slightly stronger than others. The NCAA system makes it more likely that 45.5 - 47 guys will be trained to run sprints and relays where they can score more points in meets, rather than trained to run the 800. Plenty of schools also don't have dedicated 400/800 groups, so the guys who could be top speed based 800 runners are forced into either the 8/16 group or the 2/4 group, both of which they tend to slightly underperform in.

Shit sorry that was so long. Didn't mean to go on such a tangent.

Top U.S. pros and collegians for decades ran speed-based 800m training with very limited success from the mid-1980s to the mid 2000s. We do have a lot of 44.5-47.0 400m guys who could be very good at 800m but don't want to do the training. That's a shame. But we see that our better 1500m guys can usually run mid 1:44-1:45.0 with only a few tries. It is a question of doing more speedwork from out of a distance base. You do need very good speed, however.

I have to say you're dumb wrote:

HardLoper wrote:

This... it's an endurance event. Guys like Brazier and Loxsom can run decent 4x4 splits but they are really not that fast at the open 400.

Idiotic post by Aerobic Neglect.

Idiotic response by HardLoper.

Is Rudisha better in the 400 or the 1500?

How are Brazier and Loxsom in the 1500?

Aerobic Neglect stated an indisputable fact. Cas Loxsom's 1500 time is better than his 400 according to the IAAF tables and the same would probably be true of Rudisha and Brazier if they tried it.