Jack Daniels 2Q'ing Again - Long Run Advice

Thanks for the congrats, 7:30! I was walking pretty good the day after. Really, not bad at all, all things considered. I ran 7.6 miles easy on Tuesday, skipped Wednesday, and tonight I did an 8 miler with 3x1T w/2 min jogs. It didn't hurt too bad at all, so I'm hoping to ramp up quickly and possibly run a new 10k PR at the Turkey Trot in a month! Time to stick a fork in that turkey! :)OK, man, enough about that -- it's time for YOU to get your sub-3.

I really, REALLY think you have a GREAT shot. Philly looks like a reasonable course. A couple hills early on, but not bad overall. The workouts you've been running meet or exceed what I've been doing. In April, you ran a 1:24, and I was nowhere near that this past April. I ran my 1:24 about a month ago, at the peak of my training. I have a feeling that the speed is not an issue for you at all, and you've got a solid base of mileage that will see you to 26.2. My legs hurt a lot, but they did not slow down the last 3 miles, so it must've been lactic acid or something causing a lot of discomfort, but there was no wall per se.

Don't talk yourself into a 7:00-7:05 plan. Yes, it's a "better plan" if you want to feel fresh and look good for the camera at the end of the race, but you haven't been pouring your blood, sweat, and tears into the pavement the past year to enjoy a 26.2 mile leisure tour. YOU were cut from a different cloth. Make no mistake -- on November 20, 2016, you will enter a world of pain and suffering, but you WILL emerge victorious! (see

for additional inspiration).

Don't worry about the speed -- you've already got it. As for the strength? The meat in your legs has been marinating in Jack Daniels' BQ sauce for months. You will have the strength to complete the distance, and don't let your mind tell you otherwise when the going gets tough. Just keep pushing those legs and I promise you will be happy with the results.

Some small words of wisdom to see you to your goal come race day. Follow Jack Daniels taper plan for these upcoming weeks. He seems to know what he's doing with that, and it's important that your legs be fresh! Carb load several days in advance and take in plenty of your favorite energy source during the race. I took 1 gu 15 min. prior and 1 gu every half hour during the race, along with 2 cups of gatorades and several waters. I even snagged some pickle juice near the end because they said it helps with cramps.

Stay relaxed and shake your arms out every few miles and keep your pace steady.

All I can say is that it's lonely at the top. Now get that sub-3 so I can have some company! :)

Klingon heart wrote:

You run 17 miles in 2.04, maybe 20 miles in 2.26.

How do you suppose to run a sub 3 marathon?

Be realistic.

With those times & workouts a sub-3 is not going to happen, aside from miracles.

Anyway, dreaming is good for the soul.

Well, a miracle has happened, moran.

Toadlips:

Damn man --- thank you very much, this is by far the nicest post/encouragement I've ever received on this forum! Your recovery has been phenomenal too, that is impressive as well.

Let me see how Sunday plays out. It's my first and last 20 miler, 3 weeks prior to the race, and I want to do the 10E+10M run, a good "test" I've always wanted to do.

Plan is to split the first 10 at 7:55-8:00 and the last 10...well I was going to go for 7:00. Let me start them at that, and if it feels good, I'll pick it up towards 6:52, and if I somehow fatigue and drift towards 7:05s, I'll know I am not quite there!

Will be 2:30 for 20, which sounds perfect. After that no more long runs other than a 12-14 or so maybe 10 days before the race, and a sprinkle of faster paced run (maybe 3 x 1M @ 6:15 or some shorter/faster stuff to feel sharp). I'll re-read Daniels last 2 weeks plan as per your suggestion, you're right.

I know I sound too feeble and unsure, but I've had such soul crushing experiences in the marathon (cramps) that I don't want to go out too fast, cramp up and not even PR! Philly is reasonable as you note but it's also my first marathon in 3 years! And I'm still so slow on easy days (8:30-9:15) which bothers me. Been trying to catch up on sleep as I must be rundown.

Let us know how that 10k goes (I predict 37:30) and best of luck! You seem to recover very well in between races and all. That's amazing.

Klingon heart wrote:

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

He talked about workouts. Not all-out efforts. What are you talking about?

With those times & workouts a sub-3 is not going to happen, aside from miracles.

Anyway, dreaming is good for the soul.

Hello, idiot!

All right, 7:30, maybe I got a little carried away, but I just don't want you to sell yourself short!

The 20 miler at 10E+10M does seem to be a good predictor of final pace. At least, the last marathon I used that approach on was my previous PR. As fate would have it, I ran the exact pace for that marathon that I did for the last 10M of the last 20 mile workout. Other folks have mentioned that they use this workout as a marathon pace predictor, too, so I think it's not a bad way to go.

I can respect that you would like to be a little conservative since this is your first marathon in 3 years. I actually had no idea based on the workouts and the paces you've been hitting. That's pretty impressive and shows really good promise. You must've been doing some shorter distances during those 3 years? I'm thinking that 1:24 (1:23?) in the half couldn't have happened by accident!

See how that 20 miler goes and then take it from there! I should mention that I felt pretty tired at the end of my most recent 20 milers, and I ran them as purely E runs, so don't be discouraged if you feel tired at the end! I think you're supposed to! I'd be curious to know how it went!

As for the Turkey Trot -- yes, something in the 37's is what I'm hoping for!

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR TRAINING!!!

Thanks! 10E+10M it is. I rarely do feel tired in workouts (perhaps because I run my easy days so slow), but often struggle to recover (niggles, small injuries) after hard efforts, that's why I tend to be conservative in training.

I used Daniel's or slight variations of it for the 1:24 half, and last year also ran 37:59 for 10k. You know what I was doing back then? A lot of long tempos from 6 mi @ 6:35, 8 mi @ 6:45, 10 mi @ 7:00 or even 12 @ 7:15. Not a lot of speedwork but I'd like to get to it someday (I ran stuff like 6 x 800 in 3:00 with 3:00 recovery which is probably too slow of I pace).

Will definitely keep you in the loop. Been nursing a sore quad since last week 19-miler, but I'm definitely up for the 10E+10M and as you say, "taking it from there!".

I think anyone able to follow Daniel's 2Q "to the T" (ha!) is more than prepared for the marathon. The long runs with M/T mixed in do build some serious strength. In my last marathon, I ran up to 16 at what happened to be M-pace (did same on race day) but that was sub optimal. I think 18-20 with the faster stuff mixed in is much better and sustainable in training than too long M-pace runs.

PS. Not sure if you're from Michigan (given Grand Rapids marathon), but I did live in Michigan for 2 years during grad school at U of M - Ann Arbor, and love Michigan. Great state, great people. I now live in NYC and it's full of **** and ****, as you expect!

Alright just ran the 10E + 10M today and I must say it went quite well. Weather is a bit warmer (70F!) than usual here in NY, and I felt like my HR was a bit too high particularly in the early miles. As noted I had bagged my tempo run for the week due to lingering soreness. Last week was 65 with both T-pace (Wed) and 19 miler with M-pace and this week 40.5 + this 20 so 60.5 for the week with Mon-Sat all easy pace (as is slow...8:30+) so I was somewhat rested for this workout.

First 3 miles were progressive warm-up, next 7 I targeted HR 140-145, and the final 10 miles at HR 160-165 (circa marathon pace/effort).

Not sure what to think, but I feel somewhat encouraged! The first 2-3 miles at M-pace required some effort to settle into a rhythm, but once there I felt comfortable and miles 14-20 passed by quickly. Didn't feel like running "too" hard but I did need to focus, and glanced at the watch again to not fall off pace. My heart rate was definitely up there towards 165 (my max is ~ 188, so on race day I should target HR 160 or so) --- the lack of "pain" might have simply been the adrenaline/endorphin kicking in.

Splits below with average HR for that mile. What do you think?? Didn't fade or feel too tired, but legs did take a beating and I expect some soreness. I'll take this week easy, probably no T-pace workout, and do a shorter long run of 14-15 with a few M-pace miles next week. I'm 3 weeks away today from race day.

Mile 1: 8:25 (HR 122)

Mile 2: 8:02 (HR 132)

Mile 3: 7:50 (HR 137)

Mile 4: 7:55 (HR 140)

Mile 5: 7:56 (HR 139)

Mile 6: 7:48 (HR 142)

Mile 7: 7:48 (HR 144)

Mile 8: 7:52 (HR 144)

Mile 9: 7:44 (HR 145)

Mile 10: 7:40 (HR 144)

Mile 11: 6:52 (HR 158)

Mile 12: 6:53 (HR 161)

Mile 13: 6:48 (HR 160)

Mile 14: 6:52 (HR 163)

Mile 15: 6:49 (HR 163)

Mile 16: 6:48 (HR 162)

Mile 17: 6:46 (HR 164)

Mile 18: 6:50 (HR 162)

Mile 19: 6:54 (HR 163)

Mile 20: 6:45 (HR 163)

(Overall comes out 20 miles in 2:27:17 i.e. 7:22 overall, with the first 10 in 1:19:00 (7:54 pace) and last 10 in 1:08:17 (6:50 pace).

Congrats, Toadlips. My last marathon and BQ attempt was a mess (a large part was weather related, but a lot was my fault, too), so I'm really itching to figure out an approach that will work. This has me thinking about the Daniels plan.

Good luck, 7:30. I've run Philly before and it's a solid race. Like was mentioned, it's hilly at first, so don't let the first 8-9 wipe you out. After you get down to the river, it's nice and flat for the last 15 or so!

You will be fine. Two more runs of 2:30 plus the other "workout" long runs is all you need. Trust in that. I've done the same thing with very good results.

Can somebody explain to me how much rest you should take in JD's mixed Q-sessions?

Example: 4x1T/w 1 min rest + 8x200m R/w 200jg

What should the rest be after the last 1T, i.e. before starting the first 200m?

confusedJD wrote:

Can somebody explain to me how much rest you should take in JD's mixed Q-sessions?

Example: 4x1T/w 1 min rest + 8x200m R/w 200jg

What should the rest be after the last 1T, i.e. before starting the first 200m?

I'd establish the rest given the rep, meaning in your example, you rest 1 min (jog) after each mile at T-pace, even the last one.

So before the first 200m, you jog for a minute unless indicated otherwise. Then once you do these 200m, you jog for 200m after each, even the last one, and then you cool down.

Easy peasy. Best of luck! I did a fair amount of R pace before running my half PR in the spring, and I can tell these are good for you. Think "fast" and "relaxed" at R pace, and don't pay too much attention to the watch (as the uncertainty is high). The idea is to learn to run fast "easily" not all tensed up. I did some of these on the treadmill too, it was quite fun.

You guessed right, 7:30. I'm from Michigan -- and it wasn't 70F here this morning. It was 50 and raining! Nasty, but at least I ran most of it in the light. I live about 20 minutes away from Ann Arbor. Sometimes I bring the kids there for the Hands on Museum. I used to go to school there, too, back in the day. Small world! :)

I feel the same way you do about M pace -- it doesn't feel as hard as T pace, but I still have to focus on keeping my pace up for the first few miles. It doesn't quite feel easy, just manageable. For some reason once the initial shock is over, I can put myself on autopilot and coast at that pace for quite some time...hopefully even 26.2 miles! :)

I have to say, a 20 miler like that in the middle of some weeks with solid mileage is encouraging, and the HR looks pretty steady in the low 160s. I felt pretty tired and beat up at the end of the 20 milers, and I was running them as purely E pace with no M workout at the end.

Fantastic run, my man. I hate to deal in absolutes, but barring any bizarre, non-fitness related circumstances, you are on track to destroy your previous PR. I guess the main question is whether you want to risk blowing up on a sub-3 attempt.

Here is my philosophy on overreaching and possibly blowing up. I have a feeling that you're close enough to 3:00 or better that even if you couldn't quite keep the pace the whole way, you would be able to adjust the pace in the second half and still achieve a PR.

Whatever you choose to do, congrats on nailing a very tough workout! Please keep me/us updated on your progress!

suburbanxcore wrote:

Congrats, Toadlips. My last marathon and BQ attempt was a mess (a large part was weather related, but a lot was my fault, too), so I'm really itching to figure out an approach that will work. This has me thinking about the Daniels plan.

Thanks, suburbanxcore! If you haven't been following a structured plan, I think you'll notice big improvements using Jack Daniels' approach. Only caveat to following his program is that you really need to have a solid base of mileage already in the bank in order to even start the program. Jack adds workouts in the middle of long runs, so if you're extending your weekly mileage, plus adding workouts, you would run a serious risk of injury.

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

I'd establish the rest given the rep, meaning in your example, you rest 1 min (jog) after each mile at T-pace, even the last one.

So before the first 200m, you jog for a minute unless indicated otherwise. Then once you do these 200m, you jog for 200m after each, even the last one, and then you cool down.

Easy peasy. Best of luck! I did a fair amount of R pace before running my half PR in the spring, and I can tell these are good for you. Think "fast" and "relaxed" at R pace, and don't pay too much attention to the watch (as the uncertainty is high). The idea is to learn to run fast "easily" not all tensed up. I did some of these on the treadmill too, it was quite fun.

I probably should read JD's book again, but are you sure that the rest after the T reps should be a jog?

JD says "rest", while for the R reps he says "jg", so I understood this as standing or maybe walking rest.

Anyway, this is a great thread to follow and I wish you a lot of success in your marathon.

I haven't read the full thread carefully, but the rest between cruise intervals (intervals at tempo pace) would typically be done standing around - no jogging.

The idea behind this is that the goal of the workout is to cause your body to adapt to lactic acid buildup. When you do a straight tempo run for 20 continuous minutes at T pace, the lactic acid builds up slowly - but continuously - over the 20 minute period.

When you break the workout up into shorter intervals, you still want to effectuate the same adaptation, and to do that you want the lactic acid to continue to build up over the entire duration of the workout. Lactic acid clears pretty quickly, and even light movement such as walking or jogging accelerates lactic acid clearance. So if you jog between intervals, there will be greater lactic acid clearance, and thus less adaptation to the existence of lactic acid and to clearing lactic acid under stress, than there would be if you stood around (and allowed more of the lactic acid to remain in place between intervals).

Ultimately, not a huge deal, but if you want to absolutely maximize the benefit of the workout, taking advantage of the little subtleties becomes more important.

If anything, the rest is more important in between the R pace reps, because recovery between R reps needs to be extensive, i.e. you must start the next one fresh, since the goal is to run fast and relaxed.

Quoting the book: "in order to run fast, you have to be recovered enough to run fast and with good technique".

On the other hand, for T pace and cruise intervals, I wouldn't just stand there. These are not balls out intervals, their aim is INCOMPLETE recovery in between reps, so that your lactate levels are still elevated. That's why only 1 mere minute between T pace miles, 2 min between 2T etc.

So logically, it doesn't make sense to do a standing rest there and just sit. Just got around, keep the legs moving, shuffle at 12 min/mi, walk if you must, but try to remember what the goal is. For cruise intervals (T pace), the short recoveries are designed so that you don't fully recover, hence to me it makes sense to at least jog and shuffle around.

That's an interesting take. We agree on the purpose (short recoveries = incomplete recovery = incomplete lactate clearance) but you say that standing around makes lactacte clearance worse due to movement, while I say jog around to at least keep your HR somewhat elevated.

Interesting, not sure who's right or if it matters a lot --- in my case, I wouldn't want to start the next rep on tight muscles because I haven't moved in 1-2 minutes but perhaps I am completely wrong!

There is definitely an issue of competing interests here, but I stick by my take!

I just don't think that your heart rate will drop enough in one minute of standing around to reduce the benefit of the workout, and when you do cruise intervals, you typically end up doing a greater volume of work at T pace than you would if you were doing a straight 20 minute tempo run, so to the extent that you lose a little bit of time with your heart rate up at T pace each interval, the greater overall volume offsets that; so while reasonable people could end up at different places on this, I think passive rest is better in this case. I re-checked Jack's chapter on threshold training and he is silent beyond "recovery."